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Strange

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Messenger: Ark I Sent: 2/25/2007 8:02:28 PM
Reply

No need to apologize to I for yourself or others.

It is all Freedom. People can say what they want here in the forum or outside of it, whatever makes them comfortable. The reasoning will Itinue here either way.

Arguments come and go in waves it seems. I don't know if it is just the vibes that move through or if it is just an argument that starts with one topic and then continues and spreads to other topics for a little while because of grudge or bad feelings.

It is just emotions of the people that sometimes get out of control. Sometimes I have to catch myself before I click "Post Message" and erase some words that have more use for insulting somebody else then contributing to the reasoning. And sometimes I click "Post Message" and insults get through unintentionally and sometimes intentionally.

We are people and still far from living as One with the Most High. I would be surprised if there were no arguments, bickering and belittling for an extended period of time. Especially with so many different people with different views.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 2/25/2007 9:34:02 PM
Reply

When different people speak of things that happened in the past, there are usually differences in the version of events. I know I have heard different stories from different people about an event that happened a few hours or days before. So I would expect much more difference in a story about something that happened a few hundred years before. Those people talk of the inconsistencies, but what do they say about all the similarities between the gospels?

If they say that the similarities are because it was a myth copied from other sources, then why were there inconsistencies? Was it because the people copying the story were not very thorough? I would think that if the story was an effort to fool people by taking a myth and pretending it was an actual event, that they would try to be a little more consistent in their copying.

When I read the New Testament, what is important to I is the example that it teaches. The Example that I consider to be the Example of the Almighty God, which is the Example that I and I should Live. When I read the New Testament, I find that the Example that I see between the gospels is One Example. So differences in the records of events have very little consequence to I, the Example remains True and the same.

I will reason about some of the inconsistencies. But I don't want to spend too much of I time researching every one, so I won't talk about all. Especially considering what I see as important, as mentioned in the previous paragraph.

I noticed the difference in the geneology of Christ between the two books the first time I read the New Testament. I don't know the reason for this mistake or if either of the geneologies are the correct one. But this geneology is not what I read the New Testament for.

In regards to the difference about the early childhood between Matthew and Luke. There are a lot of parts of the New Testament where one book gives more detail about a thing that happened and another book gives less, or one book writes about a time that was not written about in the other books. Mark and John don't mention anything about the birth or early childhood. Again, the details of the birth and where they were during Christ's early childhood is not what I read the New Testament for.

The other inconsistencies about the disciples are also of little interest to I. I don't come any closer to Jah by learning this or that about the meeting of and names of the disciples.

I have a comment about this comment made:
-----------------------------------------
This is especially significant as the first evening of Passover was and is one of the holiest days of the year for Jews, a day on which conducting business of any kind would be anathema.
-----------------------------------------
And later on they said,
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The trial is said to have taken place during Pesach, one of the holiest holidays for Jews then and now, on which such activities are most strictly forbidden. There was no need for the Jews to appeal to Roman authority for assistance in the trial; they had full authority from the Romans to execute anybody for any reason sanctioned by their own laws. There was even less reason for the Romans to agree to intervene in what would have been to them internecine provincial politics.
-----------------------------------------

People always bend the rules under certain circumstances. The opportunity arose and they wanted to crucify Christ before they lost their chance. And also, the scriptures say:

-----------------------------------------
John 18
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
---------------------------

Why was this not mentioned by those people in the "analysis" of the Jews taking Christ to Pilate? Why is it not lawful for the Jews to put any man to death? The laws of Moses allowed Jews to put a man to death, and as the authors of the "analysis" said, the Romans allowed the Jews to execute people. Maybe the reason they couldn't put any man to death and chose to bring Christ to Pilate was because it was a holy day(as mentioned by the "analysers") And maybe the reason Pilate first told them "Take ye him, and judge him according to your law" was because he didn't want to get involved in provincial politics.


In regards to the hearing

John 18

33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


Matthew 27
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.


John 18 gives more detail regarding the question Art thou the King of the Jews?, as it gives more detail about a lot of things that happened and the things that Christ said in other parts of the story. The question Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? was not mentioned in John 18. So the fact that Christ didn't give an answer to this unmentioned question is also not mentioned. People write what is important to them, they leave out the details they choose, and they also write based on the information they have.

There are so many more things that happened in the Life of Christ that are not mentioned in the New Testament. They are very short books and account for only a small fraction of time. When stories are summarized, things get left out, and when stories pass from person to person, details change.

The title of this topic is a good one, "Strange".

I find all this "Strange" From the times when the Jews fought against the Christians for their beliefs. From the times when the so-called Christians forced their control onto the people they called Pagans and declared that everything they stood for was wrong. And today when everyone is picking a certain religion(or whatever you want to call it), whether of Rasta, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Buddhism, Hinduism, Voodoo and the list goes on and on, and those that pick their religion, want to call the others false, wrong and mythical. If you will notice I included Rasta as one of the religions, because I was refering to the religion of Rasta (because some deal with it as religion), not the Livity of RasTafarI.

Such "Strange" behaviour when all of them should be instead seeking that which will bring them closer to the Most High. And they should also instead be criticizing the wickedness that is done by people. Or criticizing the examples that go against righteousness. Or revealing heights that are hidden by others.

The authors that wrote that "analysis" didn't even have anything to say about the teachings of Christ, they spoke about everything but that.

The only religious book that I have come across that I actually have a serious issue with is the book of mormon. Because the purpose of that book was to justify the wickedness done against the First Nations people of America. It is not just the fact that it was used for that, it is because it was written for that purpose.


Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: prophet7 Sent: 2/26/2007 2:33:55 PM
Reply

Ark I

Idren you have said much wise words pon this.

It is never wrong to ask if one does not know/overstand. How else can one learn ? If there are people that really "defend" Iesus on this questioning of I (or are offended by it) then, one thing dem must know is what he himself is supposed to have said "Ask and it shall be given unto to you, seek and you shalt find, knock and the door shall be opened unto to you."
So what is wrong for I as a "seeker" to ask such ?

I have not said that He did not exist or I do not "know" him...I have simply given questions (due to what I have learnt) that need to be answered.

I am seeking to overstand what I have yet not. Instead of apologizing for I or, "discriminating" I on this question - give I an answer like the one Ark I has given. Wisdom speak for itself.

I am here to learn just like everyone else is. For, none of us know everything but, THE MASTER. Without no questioning there will be no learning other than that what you have been taught by what someone else has claimed to have knowledge of.

Knowledege/wisdom has no boundaries. It comes from I Father and, HIS wisdom/knowledge has no boundaries. So, no one can ever confine it to what mankind claims to know.

There is never a rule, other than man made, that is against seeking the truth. That is what I is doing, by questioning.

Like I said I have no intention of going against those that believe in him but, there are some questions that need to be answered.

Ark I, raspect to you Idren.

prophet7


Messenger: JAH Coyote Sent: 2/26/2007 3:27:26 PM
Reply

Greetings Idren
I was not intending to come off as abrasive or unwelcoming, so I appologize because I probably did. I must be humble in reasoning...

Give thanks for the I humble reasoning. And please, never hesitate to ask a question- I and I must always learn, from ourselves and eachother.

Peace, Love and Ises

Ras John


Messenger: Bro Dominiq Yehyah Anbesa Sent: 2/27/2007 9:37:22 AM
Reply

Ises

First of all I think that this Brethren Prophet7 should not be confused with Sis Prophecy. Is that right?

Second thing is... I only will get into the claim, that no other sources support the existence of Christ. But we also have Josephus Flavius and others (also christians) writing from a time where there hadn't yet been any (roman) church.
And we also have writngs from earlier christians for example from Khemet, which could not be any roman fraud writings of later time (coz some argue Josephus' writings were).

It just goes against logic to deny Christ. This comes from a time long before a church, where we knot of christian persecutions in different countries. We also know that the gospels were many and many different... so no one had the monopoly to invent something.

Selah


Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 2/27/2007 4:43:28 PM
Reply

I don't want to argue, but it is proven that Josephus said nothing about Jesus. The Christian Church added it to the Antiquities of the Jews. Josephus never mentioned Jesus Christ, and yes I can prove it.

1. It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius.

2. Josephus has nowhere else mentioned the name or word Christ, in any of his works, except the testimony above mentioned,(1) and the passage concerning James, the Lord's brother.(2)

3. It interrupts the narrative.

4. The language is quite Christian.

5. It is not quoted by Chrysostom,(3) though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it, had it been then, in the text.

6. It is not quoted by Photius, though he has three articles concerning Josephus.

7. Under the article Justus of Tiberius, this author (Photius) expressly states that this historian (Josephus), being a Jew, has not taken the least notice of Christ.

8. Neither Justin, in his dialogue with Typho the Jew, nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors, nor Origen against Celsus, have even mentioned this testimony.

9. But, on the contrary, Origen openly affirms (ch. xxiv., bk. i, against Celsus), that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ.(4)

In the "Bible for Learners," we read as follows:
"Flavius Josephus, the well-known historian of the Jewish people, was born in A. D. 37, only two years after the death of Jesus; but though his work is of inestimable value as our chief authority for the circumstances of that times in which Jesus and his Apostles came forward, yet he does not seem to have ever mentioned Jesus himself. At any rate, the passage in his 'Jewish Antiquities' that refers to him is certainly spurious, and was inserted by a later and a Christian hand. The Talmud compresses the history of Jesus into a single sentence, and later Jewish writers concoct mere slanderous anecdotes. The ecclesiastical fathers mention a few sayings or events, the knowledge of which they drew from oral tradition or from writings that have since been lost. The Latin and Greek historians just mention his name. Thin meager harvest is all we reap from sources outside the Gospels."(5)

Canon Farrar, who finds himself compelled to admit that this passage in Josephus is an interpolation, consoles himself by saying:
"The single passage in which he (Josephus) alludes to Him (Christ) is interpolated, if not wholly spurious, and no one can doubt that his silence on the subject of Christianity was as deliberate as it was dishonest."(6)

The Rev. Dr. Giles, after commenting on this subject, concludes by saying:

"Eusebius is the first who quotes the passage, and our reliance on the judgment, or even the honesty, of this writer is not so great as to allow of our considering everything found in his works as undoubtedly genuine."(7)

Eusebius, then, is the first person who refers to these passages. Eusebius, "whose honesty is not so great as to allow of our considering everything found in his works as undoubtedly genuine." Eusebius, who says that it is lawful to lie and cheat for the cause of Christ.(8) This Eusebius is the sheet-anchor of reliance for most we know of the first three centuries of the Christian history. What then must we think of the history of the first three centuries of the Christian era?



For Reference look at the numbers in parenthesis,

(1) Antiquities, bk. xviii. ch. iii. 3.
(2) Ibid. bk. xx. ch. ix. 1
(3) John, Bishop of Constantinople, who died A.D. 407, was called St. Chrysostom, or Golden-mouthed, from the charms of his eloquence—the author of the last prayer in our Liturgy.
(4) Lardner: vol. vi. ch. iii.
(5) Bible for Learners. vol. III. p. 27
(6) Life of Christ, vol. I. p. 63
(7) Hebrew and christ. Rec. vol. II. p. 62
(8) Ch. 51. bk. xii of Eusebius Prae paratio Evengelica is entitled, "How far it may be proper to use falsehood as a medium for the benefit of those who require to be deceived;" and he closes his work with these words: "I have repeated whatever may rebound to the glory, and suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace of our religion."


Also at this point I should make it known that Josephus mentions over 10 Jesus's in his works. How to prove it?




Universal truth and Mass appeal will never be friends....


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 2/27/2007 7:53:21 PM
Reply

I never heard of this Josephus until now. I looked into it a little and people are still disputing whether the quote refering to Jesus was or was not a fabrication.

The thing that Dreadnut quoted was made by a person called Dr. Lardner in 1838 (another place said 1760).

William Whiston translated or fabricated(depending on who you talk to) the following:

-------------------------
3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
-------------------------

Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century.

-------------------------
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.
-------------------------


What I found is that some scholars today think that it is a complete fabrication and other scholars think that it was based on a real quote.

What I think is that I and I should learn from the example shown by Christ and Live. Trying to prove that Jesus existed just takes time away from coming closer to Jah and trying to prove that Jesus didn't exist takes time away from coming closer to Jah.


Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 2/27/2007 8:01:53 PM
Reply

Dreadnut, I found something funny about your last comment
-------------------
Universal truth and Mass appeal will never be friends
-------------------

It is true, but I wonder if you realized that the statements attempting to disprove Christ are no more a universal truth than the statements attempting to prove Christ. Both are in the interest of mass appeal, they just appeal to different masses.

Universal truth is the example of God, that has always been and always will be.

None of you of either masses will ever prove anything about Christ with your research, there will always be questions without answers.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 2/27/2007 8:45:02 PM
Reply

Ark I


That is true. But like I have already stated I don't want to argue about it. I posted what was nessicary. I don't have time to discuss these things anymore, if ones want to follow Jesus, have fun, more power to you.

Christians use the Bible like a drunk uses a street lamp, not for illumination but for support. They have abused the Hebrew Bible and its teachings and its people. I'm through.

All of these reasonings, I am finding to be useless. Why? I don;t have all the time (or desire) to post my facts about why Jesus is not the Messiah so my real persepctive can never be fully projected, that is why if ones want a second opinion I post an email with an invite to discuss it with me personally.

Hotep and Blessings to all!



Messenger: Empress Nzingha Sent: 2/27/2007 10:49:13 PM
Reply

No, Jesus was not the Messiah, ask any Jew. In fact there is no proof that Jesus the Christ ever existed, and if he did, he almost certainly was not a Jew. The texts of the Bible are most likely based on John the Baptist, or John Baptiste, and his followers. However, the message is the same message that is told throughout any and every religion. In fact most of the Bible, Old and New, are based on Kemetic magic and "mythology". Moses was a prince of Kemet, younger brother of Rameses the Great (III), whether by blood or adoption, and as such was raised in the royal schools of Kemet. Moses was raised to be an Architect (capital on purpose) and probably a priest as well. It is imporatnt to know that Moses bent the truth to control (for lack of a better word) his followers who were quick to fall into sinful ways and habits. He was a politician not neccesarily a messiah. The Hebrews were never slaves, they were in fact the children of the Royal Harem. They were discriminated against by the Kemetic ruling class who was notorious for keeping the bloodline of the Pharaohs clean. The Hebrews were one and the same as the Hyksos, translation Shepherd Kings.
Now somewhere after the fall of Solomon's empire the Hebrews, which is an ethnicity, got confused with Jews, which is a member of the Jewish religion.

[ Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used. Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who practice Judaism and have a Jewish ethnic background (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), people without Jewish parents who have converted to Judaism; and those Jews who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jewish by virtue of their family's Jewish descent and their own cultural and historical identification with the Jewish people. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) ]

The original Hebrews migrated out of Israel when Solomon's empire fell apart. They became mostly Gypsys but also many other ethnicities ranging from Arab to Irish. The Hebrews settled into many areas in Europe, Asia and Africa intermingling with the local populations and generally avoiding persecution. Jews are mostly Europeans who's ancestors practiced the religion of the Hebrews through the use of the Torah (and other such Holy texts) but few of them can be called Hebrews.



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