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Strange

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Messenger: prophet7 Sent: 2/24/2007 12:29:30 PM
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Have been doing I research i.e., seeking for the truth and have come upon a question I would like to ask. Before I ask this question I must say that this is not meant in no way as disrespect or an attack but, I find it something that should be considered.

Is it not strange that there is no proof whatsoever, other than the New Testament, that Jesus actually existed ? Could it be that the Church totally changed his name for this is the only answer I have to the following ? : (this is what I have found)

"Biblical contradictions

The Christian Bible is a collection of the majority of documents supporting the historicity of Jesus, and the only reliable sources for details on his life. Those who advocate the theory that Jesus is a myth consider contradictions in the Bible to impeach the credibility of those documents. Those who oppose the theory generally consider the contradictions to be inconsequential and largely the result of the orally-transmitted roots of the documents. A significant minority of Christians hold to the concept of Biblical Inerrancy and assert that contradictions are apparent only and result from human failings to properly interpret the Bible.

The following is a partial listing of claims by skeptics of contradictions in major biographical details of Jesus's life and death. Those who deny the historicity of Jesus would claim that facts such as these should not be in dispute.

[edit] Genealogy

Matthew 1:1-16 traces Jesus's lineage from King David's son Solomon through to Joseph's father, Jacob. Luke 3:23-31 traces a completely different lineage from King David's son Nathan to Joseph's father, Heli. Christian apologists traditionally explain this discrepancy by suggesting that one records a patrilineal genealogy while the other a matrilineal one, but both identify different fathers for Joseph and neither mentions Mary. Further, there is no historical precedent for indicating a matrilineal genealogy for a first-century Jewish man, and especially not to establish that man's royal heritage.

[edit] Early childhood

According to Matthew 2:13-16, Mary and Joseph fled with the infant Jesus to Egypt in order to escape Herod's slaughtering of "all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under." The family does not return until the end of Herod's reign. In Luke 2:39-40, the holy family returns directly to Nazareth from Bethlehem, traveling to Jerusalem every year for the Passover feast. No mention of any acts of infanticide is made.

[edit] The Disciples

The Disciples of Jesus were twelve men personally selected by Jesus and who served as his traveling companions throughout his ministry. They would have come to know each other as well as any close family member.

Matthew 4:18-20 and Mark 4:18-20 both recount the same story of how Jesus selected his first Apostle, Peter, but the stories of Peter's selection from Luke 5:2-11 and John 1:35-42 are completely different. However, many apologetists might argue that Matthew and Mark's accounts just say where Peter was found, that Luke's account goes indepth, that John's talks about how the news of the Messiah was told to Peter, and who knew in Luke that Jesus claimed to be Lord.]

Matthew 10:2 and Mark 3:16-19 both list the same set of disciples. Luke 6:13-16 omits Thaddaeus and includes Judas son of James in his place. Acts 1:13,26 agrees with Luke but adds that the remaining disciples chose Matthias to replace Judas Iscariot. John neither provides a list nor indicates their number, though it does mention nine of them by name at various places.

[edit] The trial

According to Matthew 26:18-20, 26:57-68, 27:1-2, Mark 14:16-18, 14:53-72, and 15:1, Jesus's initial hearing was at night on the first evening of Passover; in the morning, he was taken to Pontius Pilate. Luke 22:13-15 and 54-66 record the hearing as having taken place in the morning, and in John 18:28 and 19:14 it happened the day before. This is especially significant as the first evening of Passover was and is one of the holiest days of the year for Jews, a day on which conducting business of any kind would be anathema.

In Matthew 26:59-66 and Mark 14:55-64, Jesus is tried by the entire Sanhedrin, the Jewish high court. In Luke 22:66-71, there was no trial, but only an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin. In John 18:13-24, Jesus was never brought before the Sanhedrin at all; Jesus only had private hearings before Annas and Caiphas.

Matthew 27:11-14 reports that Jesus maintained a stoic silence at his hearing before Pilate. According to John 18:33-37, Jesus answered all the charges eloquently and at length.

The chief priests and elders persuade the people to demand the release of Barabbas in Matthew 27:20, whereas in Mark 15:11 only the chief priests are responsible, and in Luke 23:18-23 the people seem to decide for themselves without prompting from leadership.

[edit] The Resurrection

Biblical accounts of the resurrection differ on a great number of details of varying significance, including who was at and who went to the tomb, when they arrived, whether nor not the stone covered the tomb, whether or not there was an earthquake, who did what afterwards, how and to whom Jesus made his initial appearances after his resurrection, and the reactions of those he appeared to. The discrepancies are generally attributed to either an understandable confusion on the part of those who witnessed this most extraordinary event, or a sure sign of multiple sources offering creative fictional interpretation of an event they were not witness to themselves.

[edit] The Ascension

In both Mark 16:14-19 and Luke 24:50-51, the Ascension takes place the same day as the Resurrection. In Mark, while seated at a table in or near Jerusalem, Jesus commands the Disciples to spread the Gospel and tells them that they may identify themselves to unbelievers by their invulnerability to poison and abilities to heal the sick and then is received into Heaven. In Luke, the Disciples are outdoors at Bethany where Jesus was in the act of blessing them when he was carried up to Heaven.

In Acts 1:9-12, forty days have passed, during which Jesus continued to preach the Gospel. The Disciples are northeast of Bethany, at Mount Olivet. Jesus delivers a brief final message to his Disciples and is taken up and received by a cloud. Two men, clothed in white, appear out of nowhere to tell the Disciples that Jesus will return in the same manner as he was taken.

Matthew contains no mention of the Ascension.

[edit] Events only recorded in the Bible

In addition to the numerous contradictions in the Bible's own account of Jesus's life, those who reject the historicity of Jesus consider the numerous spectacular events recorded only in the Bible and nowhere else as irreparably condemning the Bible's reliability as a historical account.

Those who hold to the historicity of Jesus generally, though not universally, acknowledge that the Bible is not to be considered the literal truth, and that it contains many obviously-mythical elements; rather, they consider what follows to be later additions to the core truth of the historical Jesus, in much the same way that a caught fish gets bigger each time in the re-telling. Those who hold that Jesus is a myth see no evidence that any fish was ever caught in the first place.

[edit] Star of Bethlehem

Although many explanations have been offered for the Star of Bethlehem, no actual record of any such astronomical phenomenon can be found.

[edit] Flight to Egypt

Also as mentioned above, Matthew 2:13-16 records the holy family as having fled to Egypt. Though they may well have remained incognito while they lived there, the Bible says nothing on the matter one way or the other. If they did not keep their identities hidden, it is most likely that Philo, who was living in Alexandria at this time, would have recorded the presence of the prophesied and persecuted future King of the Jews.

[edit] Public miracles

The Bible records Jesus as having performed some very public miracles, in front of crowds numbering, in some cases, in the thousands. He healed the sick, blind, and lame; he raised the dead; he walked on water; and he fed multitudes with table scraps. History is replete with people doing such deeds, but every other instance is universally assumed to be mythic fiction.

[edit] Public ministry

Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount to a crowd of "multitudes," and the Sermon on the Plain to "great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases." This clearly indicates that Jesus must have been a popular figure known throughout the entire region; yet, no mention is made of any preacher giving such a sermon to such crowds.

[edit] The trial

Jesus's trial is notable for what it describes as a great many of the most egregious possible violations of Jewish and Roman law and custom by all officials involved. The trial is said to have taken place during Pesach, one of the holiest holidays for Jews then and now, on which such activities are most strictly forbidden. There was no need for the Jews to appeal to Roman authority for assistance in the trial; they had full authority from the Romans to execute anybody for any reason sanctioned by their own laws. There was even less reason for the Romans to agree to intervene in what would have been to them internecine provincial politics. The behavior of the Sanhedrin, such as spitting on Jesus, would have been just as shocking to people then as would similar action by the members of the United States Supreme Court today. If Pilate had agreed to take the case, he would not have permitted an unruly mob to have remained present, let alone have a say in the trial. While the Romans courts, like all courts, surely freed the guilty and executed the innocent, they never would have publicly declared their intention to do so any more than would any modern court; Pilate's acquiescence in granting the mob Barabbas in exchange for Jesus is incomprehensible. Finally, had Pilate actually acted as described, Rome would have had his head on a platter, figuratively if not literally, for letting a mob dictate his actions as well as for general gross misconduct.

In short, if even one aspect of the trial happened as described, it would have caught the attention--and raised the ire--of a great many important people in the region and beyond. If all of it happened as described, it would have been the most scandalous trial of the millennium.

[edit] The crucifixion

While there are undoubtedly many people who were crucified who remain unknown to history, various records of countless crucifixions survive. Romans saw crucifixion as a most ignominious way to die, and, as such, crucifixions often caught the attention of local historians. Sometimes Romans would crucify hundreds of people a day, but they also crucified people singly or in small groups. Josephus records many of these, including that of a Jesus who was the son of a man named Stada, but nobody recorded any crucifixion of a charismatic rebel preacher who could be mistaken for Jesus Christ.

[edit] Portents at Jesus's death

The Gospels record ominous portents as having occurred at the time of Jesus's death. As recorded in Matthew 27:45-54 and similarly in the other synoptic Gospels, a three-hour darkness was "over all the land"; the veil of the temple was rent; there was an earthquake; and the graves opened and dead saints "appeared unto many" in Jerusalem.

No eclipse would have been astronomically possible at the time; Pesach, according to the lunar calendar, always is celebrated with the start of the full moon, and eclipses can only happen when the moon is new. Further, no eclipse ever lasts for more than a few minutes--let alone three hours. No account of this most remarkable event, visible from "all the land," can be found outside the Gospels.

Records of major earthquakes from the period are rather comprehensive, yet no recorded earthquake happened at a time when the crucifixion could have happened.

The rending of the veil of the temple would have been a most remarkable occurrence, yet it remained intact until the temple was destroyed in 70 CE.

Had presumably all the graves in the area been opened and a corresponding number of dead saints "appeared unto many" in Jerusalem, it is absolutely certain that those many would have reported the fact, yet none did.

[edit] The Resurrected Jesus

Acts 1:3 says that, for forty days after his resurrection, Jesus continued his ministry, yet no extra-Biblical record can be found of the most remarkable fact of a man, very publicly executed, continuing to do for over a month that which got him executed in the first place.

[edit] The Ascension

According to Acts 1:9, Jesus Ascended to Heaven from atop Mount Olivet, which would have been in full view of all of Jerusalem. Once more, no account of the Ascension can be found outside of the Bible."

Idrens and Sistrens I repeat again - this is not an attack but, does anyone here have answers to this ?

prophet7




Messenger: prophet7 Sent: 2/24/2007 12:32:32 PM
Reply

Further more I find this information disturbing too :

"Notable omissions in extant contemporary records

It is often argued that no mention of Jesus or the events of the New Testament can be found in any of the numerous contemporary and near-contemporary records of the day, and that this serves as evidence against the existence of the Jesus of the gospels.

[edit] Philo (20 BCE - 40 CE)

By far, the most notable omission is Philo's. Philo was a Hellenized Jew who lived in Alexandria, Egypt. He visited the Temple in Jerusalem, and corresponded with family there. He wrote a great many books on religion and philosophy which survive to this day, and mentioned many of his contemporaries. His main theological contribution was the development of the Logos, the "Word" that opens the Gospel of John. Yet Philo not once mentions Jesus, anybody who could be mistaken for Jesus, or any of the events of the New Testament. His last writings come from 40 CE, only a few years after the end of Pontius Pilate's reign, when he was part of an embassy sent by the Alexandrian Jews to the Roman Emperor Caligula.

[edit] Plutarch (ca. 46 - 127)

Plutarch wrote, about the same time as Josephus, about contemporary Roman figures, oracles, prophesies, and moral, religious, and spiritual issues. A figure such as Jesus, whom the Gospels portray as interacting with Roman figures, making prophecies, and giving sermons on novel religious and spiritual issues, would have been of great interest to him.

[edit] Justus

Justus of Tiberias wrote, at the end of the first century, a history of Jewish kings (who the gospels state Jesus had interactions with). Justus' history does not survive, but Photius, who read it in the 9th century, stated that it did not mention "the coming of Christ, the events of His life, or the miracles performed by Him".[4]

[edit] Josephus (ca. 37 - ca. 100)

Main article: Josephus on Jesus

For those who reject the authenticity of both the Testamonium Flavanium and the xx.9 reference to James, Josephus would belong on this list. Naturally, those who accept the authenticity of one or the other, in whole or in part, see Josephus as providing evidence for an historical Jesus and thus would object to Josephus's inclusion. As the only first-century non-Christian to perhaps write of Jesus, the two brief mentions to be found in Antiquities of the Jews (written ca. 94) are the subject of often-heated debate.

[edit] Others

There are a number of other sources that survive from the period in which it would be reasonable to find mention of Jesus, though in no particular case would one be surprised to find mention of Jesus lacking.

These include: Pliny the Elder, who wrote, in 80 CE, a Natural History that mentions hundreds of people, major and minor; Juvenal, Martial, Petronius, and Persius, Roman satirists who favored topics similar to Jesus's story;[citation needed] Pausanias, whose massive Guide to Greece includes mentions of thousands of names, including minor Jewish figures in Palestine; Epictetus and Aelius Aristides, who both recorded events and people in Palestine;[citation needed] and the letters of Fronto (who is known to have delivered a speech attacking Christian rituals).[5]

Other writers and historians of the time who did not mention Jesus include Dio Chrysostom, Aulus Gellius, Lucius Apuleius, Marcus Aurelius, Musonius Rufus, Cassius Maximus Tyrius, Arrian, Appian, Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, Lucius Annaeus Florus, and Marcus Annaeus Lucanus."

Is it not strange that historians, writers, scribes of those times and areas never made no mention of him ?

prophet7


Messenger: prophet7 Sent: 2/24/2007 12:38:10 PM
Reply

Idrens and Sistrens I am not looking for no trouble with this or trying to insult those who believe in him. Rather I am looking for other information to proove this wrong and till now can not find any. Would that mean that this is true ?

The only answer I have had to this is the one I mentioned before i.e., what if his name was not Jesus, Yeshua, Christ, etc.etc., ? But, then what about the earthquake ? What about the comet/star and other things ?

prophet7


Messenger: Brethren Nicholas I Sent: 2/24/2007 2:51:27 PM
Reply

check it bredren, even if all of that was false.......it no matta!

InI live for INI LORD IMIGHTY IRATOR,KING OF KINGS,LORD OF LORDS,CONQUERING LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH,IMMANUEL HAILE I SELASSIE I,JAH!RAS TAFARI!!!!

LET JAH BE INI GUIDE. Bless.

Selah
RasTafarI


Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 2/24/2007 3:54:59 PM
Reply

Yo sis, your getting into some real shit right now and you should feel no way about asking these questions, you have every right. Remember sis that we have come to Rastafari because InI were tired of being supressed both physically and mentally. ASK QUESTIONS! KNOW THE POWER OF A QUESTION!

Prophecy, I have an answer for you, but due to my raspect for others faiths on here I am not going to post it on here. I don't want to offend those on here who believe Jesus Christ was a biblical fullfillment.

It would be a joy to discuss these issues and others with you. I don't pretend to be the worlds foremost expert on anything, I'm just an ordinary man seeking extraordinary knowledge.

Give I a link, jahjahguidei@yahoo.com. I have much that I can share with you.

Hotep sis,


Messenger: Empress Nzingha Sent: 2/24/2007 6:58:15 PM
Reply

"Prophecy, I have an answer for you, but due to my raspect for others faiths on here I am not going to post it on here. I don't want to offend those on here who believe Jesus Christ was a biblical fullfillment."

couldn't have said it better myself:
empressnzingha@hotmail.com




Messenger: JAH Coyote Sent: 2/25/2007 1:47:49 AM
Reply

Hmmmm...
There are a few comments I would like to make.

For one thing, Rastafari as a movement is intended to bring Idren together and not to seperate. To I, this comment seems to be of the latter.
Aside from that- the way in which this information is compiled seems misleading. It does not give many direct quotes backing up its statements, it merely puts the information into the author's own words.
A next thing: it seems to I, from reading the article prophet7 has posted, it is not his/her own words. If this is the case, the article should be properly sourced.

As for the Gospels contradicting eachother, it is widely known that they were all compiled about one hundred years after Christ's death. The news spread while Jesus was alive about His works was all hearsay and much of it the Gospels claimed to not be based one truth. In fact, I remember when I was reading the Bible in one book the evangelist was saying that people were saying Jesus would tear down the temple and build a new one when in actuality he didn't. Later on, I believe in Luke or John, he says that Jesus was in fact making this claim.

It is important to rely on the overall message when studying Christ and not focus too much on semantics. I and I know Christ to be the truth because I and I see Him to be right as I and I see how life works. Love is the answer, so why waste time arguing Christ?

Peace and love
JAH Rastafari!


Messenger: Ras Sistren Khamyl Sent: 2/25/2007 10:55:40 AM
Reply

what did H.I.M. about Christ? the BIBLE?
if you trust in H.I.M.'s credibility.......................
RSK


Messenger: JAH Coyote Sent: 2/25/2007 12:39:27 PM
Reply

Here is a speech I thought most people here would be very familiar with.

Christmas Broadcast to America
Saturday, December 25, 1937

The Lion of Judah has prevailed
Haile Selassie I, Elect of God
King of Kings of Ethiopia
I am very pleased to send you words of my best wishes for your happiness, progress and peace, on this blessed day for mankind,

from the capital of Great Britain, which is renowned for its hospitality. Let peace reign in your hearts, among your families, in the unity of your governments, and in your relations with other peoples of the world. There is no greater day of gratitude and joy for Christians than celebrating the birthday of Our Saviour Jesus Christ. On this day of happiness, every Christian, by meditating on [Jesus'] life and the work He accomplished for all of us, tends to forget the trials he faces and the sadness that breaks his heart. At the same time everyone is inclined to minimize the trials and sorrows of his own, his kindred, and friends and forgives those who have grieved him. Since Our childhood, Our innermost thoughts have been overwhelmed by the mysterious deep spirit of the divine infant's birth, which is not only expressive but also glorious and inscrutable. Likewise, no matter what one's reputation, whether one's accomplishment is great or humble, tiresome or fruitless, in the journey of life, the mystery of Bethlehem dominates our spirit.

With the birth of the Son of God, an unprecedented, an unrepeatable, and a long-anticipated phenomenon occurred. He was born in a stable instead of a palace, in a manger instead of a crib. The hearts of the Wise men were struck by fear and wonder due to His Majestic Humbleness. The kings prostrated themselves before Him and worshipped Him. 'Peace be to those who have good will. This became the first message.

When He sacrificed himself at Golgotha for the atonement of our sin, He prayed with His last breath for the forgiveness of those who had tortured Him saying, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do'. Shame on those of us who are Christians and do not follow the way of the Savior of the World, whose life was filled with kindness, humility, and martyrdom! If we lived by the laws he gave us and were worthy of being called Christian, peace would have reigned on this earth.

Men were supposed to be the equals of the living angels who unceasingly sang praises before the eternal God. Had this been so, peoples of the world would not have been divided along lines of enmity.

In truth there is no legitimate reason or good cause which justifies war. Was it not this fundamental spirit which dwelt in American statesmen and their brothers in other parts of the world that enabled them to write the new international principles according to the laws of Our Savior. The principles were intended to avoid the calamities of war and to bring together the big and small nations of the world as one family and settle disputes that might arise between them through appropriate law and justice.

Well, there is not much to do about that! Although the toils of wise people may earn them respect, it is a fact of life that the spirit of the wicked continues to cast its shadow on this world. The arrogant are seen visibly leading their people into crime and destruction. The laws of the League of Nations are constantly violated and wars and acts of aggression repeatedly take place, and in regard to this, your honorable president told you recently that the principles of [the Covenent of the League of Nations], which were meant to assure the peace and safety of all peoples, were trampled on, and the forum of peace was consequently disrupted. The respectable idea on which [the league] was founded was made an object of mockery. The two-thousand-year-old Christian Civilization was threatened with destruction. If this happens, there will be a return to the days of barbarism, when the mighty could realize their aspirations at will. So that the spirit of the cursed will not gain predominance over the human race whom Christ redeemed with his blood, all peace loving people should cooperate to stand firm in order to preserve and promote lawfulness and peace.

War is not the only means to stop war. Men of goodwill, who fully recognize their duties, should be able, with the assistance of all free men, to prevent war and help rehabilitate all those who were debilitated and damaged by war, in order to protect this precious diamond, 'Peace'.

People of America! I wish you a merry Christmas. I plead with you to remember in your prayers all those weak and endangered peoples who look to the flags of the free nations with confidence, hoping to discern the star which will announce their peace and future security.



Excerpt from

My Life and Ethiopia's Progress, Volume 2

Haile Selassie I

King of Kings of Ethiopia



used with permission from Frontline Distribution International, Inc. ©1999

http://www.jah-rastafari.com/selassie-words/show-jah-word.asp?word_id=christmas


Messenger: Ras KebreAB Sent: 2/25/2007 1:37:02 PM
Reply


Idren Ark I

I man would just like to apologize to the I for some of the things going on in the forum. I see some of the idem have taken to censoring them own selves, why? i do not know. If the idem are looking to reason with one and ones who only agree with you, then you have the wrong idea of what reasoning is. Ark I, I am sure when you formed this blessed forum, you intended for all to speak freely. I doubt if you intended it as a place for ppl to meet and then go and reason in secret. This saddens I. I see to much arguments, bickering and belittling and too little humble reasonings and I feel this is a mockery of your good intentions. I just wish to apologize to you if i man have played any part in this.
I pray that when you see this kinds of things, you do not get discouraged from your mission.

Blessed Love I
Rastafari Is


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