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Are we sinful? Is there such a thing as original sin that has been passed down from Adam and Eve?

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Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/8/2009 3:19:56 PM

The I say that people are saying that we are not sinful. What exactly does the I mean by that, is the I saying that people say that we don't sin? I don't think anybody is saying that. It is true that I and I are saying that I and I must be Perfect. Where in the bible does it say something different. As I already quoted from Christ. --------------------------------------------- Perfect Livity Jah requires I and I to be Perfect in his way. Here are numerous scripture of Jesus Christ's words that show I and I what is required of I and I. I can't Iverstand why people don't see what Jah requires from I and I. Do people forget these words soon after they read them? Matthew 5 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Luke 6 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. John 14 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. John 13 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. Matthew 5 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. .......Read the rest of this scripture for more detail Matthew 12 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 16 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Luke 13 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. John 8 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. The ways of Christ are even more strict then the ways of Moses. Christ said. Matthew 5 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. How many more words of Christ does a man need to read to be convinced of how we are to live? --------------------------------------------- There is no ambiguity about what Christ means when He says Perfect. He gave the Standard of Perfection that He requires. --------------------------------------------- The sacrifice of Christ was that he taught I and I Jah way because he knew that he would have to sacrifice his body to teach I and I this because he knew that babylon would crucify him for teaching the truth to the people. But he still showed I and I the truth, he sacrificed himself for this. So when people forget his words and teachings it is a disrespect to the sacrifice Christ gave in order to show I and I these words. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is not a request and Christ didn't say try to be so, but he said Be ye therefore perfect. And for people that think that the perfection is something less than this or that, Christ showed them, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. So this kind of perfection is the highest form of perfection that is. --------------------------------------------- Again, How many more words of Christ does a man need to read to be convinced of how we are to live?

Messenger: Ras I-Tom Sent: 6/8/2009 3:48:02 PM

If we do sin then arent we sinful? I don't see the bible as trying to say we are evil because we sin, it is just letting us know the reality that no one is perfect, that we will transgress the law at times. We have fallen from perfection through the first human beings, Adam and Eve, commiting the first sin (this is what I mean by original sin). And now we have to work towards perfection. We have to continually strive to be so, as Christ said. I was just pointing out the reality that the bible shows us, and that is that the sinful die. The perfect do not lie in the grave, like those the bible tells us of such as Enoch, and Elijah, and Christ. I was just reasoning about the reality that we look around today and we see our brothers and sisters beign buried. (when I say death I am not referring to the ending to life, more so teh destruction of flesh). If we could be perfect in this flesh in this iwa, then our flesh would be indestructible, like Enoch and Elijah, and Yeshua. The reality is that people today suffer the fate of adam because they are sinful. The wages of sin is death. Jah made this clear to Adam as soon as he ate of the fruit, today you shall surely die. That is not to say that life does not continue. Merely that this flesh, unless carried in a perfect manner, is temporary and does not continue. As righteouss as the prophets were they still suffered the fate of Adam. When I say we are sinful I am not saying we are evil. As I said there is a difference between striving for perfection (to not sin) and doing anything you choose to do regardless of whether it goes against Jah commands. Just because we are sinful does not mean we are not righteouss. We are the ones striving to be perfect. The reality just is that as much as we strive we are still sinful, because we do transgress the law from time to time, we do make mistakes. We would know if one truly carried their flesh in a perfect manner, because they would be, and then they simple would not be, Just as Enoch, was on earth, and then was not, and just as Elijah was on earth and then was taken up in the whirlwind and was not. I completely agree that we should listen to Christ words and sin no more! We should continually strive to be perfect as the Father is perfect. However one has to face reality and that is that as much as we strive we are sinful. But through the grace of Jah we are forgiven, and still have been given the promise of life and a new incorruptible body. Christ was resurrected, that was the first resurrection. We will be the second resurrection. We go to the grave, we sleep, at judgment, we are resurrected from teh grave, we are judged, and the wicked shall be cut off, while Jah children shall inherit the earth, and be given their incorrubtible bodies. No imperfection shall enter Zion.

Messenger: Ras I-Tom Sent: 6/8/2009 4:08:21 PM

You are right Ark I, we are to live by the words of Christ, and be perfect as our Father is. I am not saying that we are not to live so Ark I. I was just pointing our the reality that the bible tells us of, and teh reality that we can iverstand through just looking around.

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/8/2009 4:25:30 PM

Stop generalizing and including I and I in your backwards thinking. The things you are saying apply to you and people like you, not to I and I. Ras I-Tom, the I says --------------------- Choosing to turn away from sin does not mean that we will never sin again. --------------------- Yes it does mean that. If we still sin, we have at most only chosen to try to turn away. The I says --------------------- Choosing to strive to live perfectly does not mean that we will be perfect --------------------- But choosing to Live Perfectly means that we will be Perfect. The I says, --------------------- To be free from sin does not mean that we will never make a mistake, it just means that we are no longer a slave to sin but rather a servant to Jah. --------------------- What kind of foolishness is that. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Don't pretend that you are free from sin and no longer a servant to sin, but at the same time still sin. That is impossible. You are still a servant to sin, as before. Ras I-Tom, I have a hard time believing that the I actually read those words I posted from Christ. Don't just read them blindly, take them into your mind an process them. Ras I-Tom, you say, ---------------------------- I completely agree that we should listen to Christ words and sin no more! We should continually strive to be perfect as the Father is perfect. However one has to face reality and that is that as much as we strive we are sinful. But through the grace of Jah we are forgiven, and still have been given the promise of life and a new incorruptible body. ---------------------------- It is true that you have to face the reality that no matter how much you strive you will still be sinful. But that is not something I and I will have to face, because I and I won't settle for striving to failure. Read again all those quotes I put up from Christ in I previous post. And see if He leaves any room for you to be sinful and still be acceptable unto Jah. Sin shall not enter Zion. You are fooling yourself if you think you will enter Christ Kingdom in any form with your sinful ways. ---------------------------- Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ---------------------------- It is amazing to I how stiff-necked people can be. How can anybody even read that quote alone from Christ and talk like you do? And it is even more unbelievable that a person can read those numerous quotes I posted from Christ and still talk like you do, especially while at the same time acting like you look to the words of Christ. It is extremely strange to I that such a thing is possible. ---------------------------- John 8 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. ---------------------------- I guess it all comes down to that. It is still such a strange concept to I that it is possible to read Christ's words and not Iverstand what is expected. What He is saying is not ambiguous at all, it is very straight forward. I didn't use that quote above lightly. But it is the only thing that makes sense. I know you might get quite offended by it, but hopefully your offense causes you to stop making excuses for your sinfulness, and strive with a destination of Righteousness, instead of striving for a destination that will never reach Righteousness.

Messenger: Ras I-Tom Sent: 6/8/2009 6:55:47 PM

Ark I, I am not offended. You are only helping me. The only part I find hard to accept is if we can be perfect then why isn't anyone? Why is it that we still suffer the fate of Adam; death (destruction of the flesh). I would like you to reason to me about what I had said: --------- The reality is that people today suffer the fate of adam because they are sinful. The wages of sin is death. Jah made this clear to Adam as soon as he ate of the fruit, today you shall surely die. That is not to say that life does not continue. Merely that this flesh, unless carried in a perfect manner, is temporary and does not continue. --------- Do you know anyone who is perfect? There are three people in the bible who are said to be perfect; Enoch, Elijah, and Yeshua Christ. None of them saw the grave, but were taken up to the Father. If we could carry this flesh in a perfect manner in this iwa then why is it that the flesh is destroyed? The flesh is the vessel, if one can be perfect in spirit then one can carry the vessel of the spirit in a perfect manner, and Yeshua did, and as Elijah did, and as Enoch did. Also what does Christ mean by perfect? The Hebrew word used is tamin, and the greek word is telios. Both mean whole or complete. what does whole and complete imply to the I? Does it imply walking perfectly in the flesh without fault? As for when I said that being free from sin does not mean that we will not sin. That was wrong for me to say that. I should say Just because we are free from sin does not mean we will not make mistakes. What is sin? (1 John 3:4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. What was the first sin mentioned in the bible? It was when Adam and Eve transgressed the law which the Father set. So to sin is to not walk in accordance to the law. Now if one walks in accordance to the law does that mean that they will not make mistakes? Well just read the bible, look at Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, even the high priests..they walked in accordance to the law..yet we can read of mistakes that they made. Would we say that they are a slave to sin because they made a mistake? They did not sin in the respect that they did not walk in accordance to the law and did whatever they wanted. They sinned in the respect that they DID walk in accordance to the law, but made a mistake at times. Jah judges one according to their heart. Blessed love.

Messenger: Ras I-Tom Sent: 6/8/2009 9:46:59 PM

So Christ said to be perfect (telios). From my research Telios has several meanings. You can use it to mean to be whole, complete, purposeful, perfect, full, wanting nothing, to grow up or maturity. As for the Hebrew meanings I would have to ask about that. So when Christ tells I and I to be 'telios' as the Father is 'telios' is he saying that I and I are to carry ourselves in a way that we will never sin in the respect that we will never make a mistake? He says as the Father is perfect. Can we ever be perfect in the sence that the Father is perfect? Can we ever attain the level of unparalleled and unconcievable perfection which is the Father? So I am very interested into what Christ is sayin. He wouldn't tell us to be something we cannot be obviously. What does the I think? I sight that there is a difference between continuing to sin willfully and makig a mistake. Hebrews 10:26-27: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” As I had said, we read right througout the bible of God's children making mistakes as long as they were in the flesh. Would we say they were a slave to sin though? I would just say they are human. As I said I look around and I see the same thing. We make mistakes from time to time, and we do sin. In what way does the I think Christ was using the word 'telios'? Stay blessed.

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/8/2009 10:49:06 PM

I wrote some responses to what you said, and then I erased them because I am not going around in that circle again. If you Iverstood what was already said, you wouldn't have asked those things. The only respose I will leave from what I said. Is that don't waste time with your definitions of Perfect. Christ is clear in those quotes I gave, in the context where He says Perfect and in the other quotes where He doesn't use the word Perfect. The other response I will give is in relation to you saying this ------------------- I sight that there is a difference between continuing to sin willfully and makig a mistake. ------------------- There might be some differences, but sin is sin none the less. If you sin wilfully or by mistake, then you are a servant of sin. And how often is it actually a mistake when people sin? That is such a bullshit excuse that only fools your own self, not Jah. It is a decision that people make. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. For the rest of this reasoning, I will just tell the I how to defeat sin and have Faith in Life. It is your choice if you want to have faith in death instead. The reason why most are not Perfect is because we are a faithless generation, like the generations before. And because we always find excuses for our wickedness, always giving ourselves permission to walk in sin. Iverstand that I and I need to clean our ways, or we will die in our sin. And the first and most important step to Live Perfect, is to refuse any doubt, and don't allow yourself to believe that you will not Live Perfect. If you have faith that you will always fall short, then you will truly always fall short, there is no way that you will get around that, and you will die in sin. So once the I learns to be stubborn in your Faith, and refuse doubt and the devil, then doubt will flee and the devil will flee. The I must Know that your Ways can and will be made Perfect, without that, it will truly be impossible, and with that, it will not only be possible, but will be True and Real. To build up Righteousness, I and I need to resist and cast away wickedness. I and I should resist wicked thoughts as they come so they can't become action. It can be hard to do this because we have been giving in to temptation for generations. So in the beginning, the I might find yourself with more wicked thoughts and actions then you should. But as times goes on, and I and I Itinue to resist temptation, temptation will flee away and there will be much more Righteousness. If people attempt to only stop sin physically, then it will never go away, because what is on the inside must come out. So the only way to be clean on the outside, is to become clean on the inside. To resist temptation, I and I need to resist and stop the thought as it starts to rise. The sooner I and I resist, the closer I and I come to casting away temptation entirely. While this can happen in a second, it is usually a process over time. Fasting builds up discipline in our mind, and cleans I and I vessel. This discipline to resist hunger, builds up I and I mental discipline in general. I and I can learn to resist hunger when necessary, resist sleep when necessary, and resist other things also. In time, the I will gain more control over your own self, and be able to resist temptation in many situations, and eventually, if the I Faith is strong enough, the I will resist temptation in all situations. Ones and Ones who do this will see their former sins go away, and the wickedness will not even be able to enter their mind for a second. And as they remove sins, they will Itinue to fight more sins, and sin after sin will drop away to a point where it cannot enter the mind, and cannot tempt in the slightest. All Ones who are in the process on cleaning themselves will remember how some thoughts used to enter and tempt, and how they are not even a slight temptation anymore. More and more thoughts of temptation will flee, until there is no more wickedness in Thought, Irits, and Action. Everything else I have to say to the I about this has already been said in this reasoning by Iself and other Ones and Ones and also in the links I gave the I.

Messenger: Yaa Asantewa Sent: 6/9/2009 7:36:47 AM

another continual searcher. is His Imperial Majesty not the find, then? You looking for something else? Its also laughable when totally misguided people use that whole 'only JAH knows the heart of one'. That is true... have u searched the depths and heights of that truth? No. Else most of youz will stop using that as it is exposure. Anyway the rock, why are you saying that when u know full well that you don't know yourself as Ras Tafari. Not to say thats a problem... but where is your advice relevant to one who says they seek the rise? And don't tell me about general ideas on knowing Self and all that. I get all that, and from that I apprecilove the input. But... you should not be so divisive, you seem to want to undermine the ights between IandI. Which, as you are not rasta is not as helpful as you think. Your meds is different. This is rasta thing we are talking here? What is it to you? You already said that you bypassed this? So... gwarn nuh.

Messenger: Ras I-Tom Sent: 6/9/2009 9:16:40 AM

Ark I, you have answered all my questions, but one. Give thanks. You are right Ark I, I need not worry myself with those definitions, that is confusion, when Christ makes himself clear. I was just trying to better iverstand Christ words though. I do not know if you have, but from what I read I cannot see it. This is the last thing I want you to reason to me about regarding this topic. As I said from what I read I do not know if you addressed this. So when we overcome sin and temptation completely we will overcome the destruction of the flesh? Like the ones the bible spoke of who overcame sin and temptation and lived perfectly; Enoch and Elijah and Christ. I can overstand dying in sin, but I can't overstand how you can die in perfection. (by death I am referring to the destruction of the flesh) Give thanks to all the I them who are replying to my questions.

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 6/9/2009 9:46:10 AM

Destruction of the flesh? I and I have been overcoming the destruction of the flesh for so many centuries upon centuries, that is why I and I still Live. If the reason you want to trod in a Perfect way is to stop your present body from getting old and passing, then you have the wrong intention and will not Learn to be Perfect. Part of a Perfect way is trodding without selfishness or desire for self gain. I and I trod to make I ways Perfect because of I Respect and Love for the Most High, and I know that is how the Most High has shown I and I to Live and I want to Live by the example Selassie I set. I am looking to Please I Father, not for self gain, but to be an obedient Child and Live according to the way I am supposed to Live. To take I responsibility and fulfill I role in this Creation. I don't know and don't care about the answer to your question, I try not to spend too much time pondering things that I can't foresee. Whether Jah will take I up in a Whirlwind and Chariot of Fire or whatever is not I concern, I concern is to blaze Fire on Iself until I am Clean, and show other Ones and Ones the same thing. Iverstand that this flesh passing is not death for the Perfect. Their Life will Itinue in their future generations, and will also Itinue in other ways until Judgement Time when Iternal Life will be fulfilled. Where a tree falls, there shall it lie until Judgement takes it's course. So the Life of the Perfect will be preserved, and the Life of the future generations of Perfection will be preserved. When Judgement comes, it will be the second and final death for the sinful, and the Rising of Life for the Perfect. But like I said, don't look to that for the reasons to Live in a Perfect way, or you will surely fail. Learn to change your Mind and Irits to be like the Most High Haile Selassie I, and soon all thoughts of death and selfishness will be far from the I, because the I will Iverstand how irrelevant those things are and how they have no place in the Irits of God.

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