Jahcub: "No intrusion brotha, we all came to reason here. I sight that there is a design to creation, that what is perceived as chaos is part of the order/design of creation. All life is in motion, moving forward Iyah and somethings moving backwards it seems; well most movement seems to flow in a torus pattern... Where is creation not in motion?"
I'm not sure you got the point that I was making. Let's think about it like this. Your left hemisphere (brain) deals with logic. Your right deals with creativity. It's like order and chaos. There is a natural balancing act between both. My point is that this is NATURAL. And because it is natural it doesn't need a creator.
When a design HAS TO BE created then it is not natural but artificial. If it was natural it would be "naturally occurring". Do you feel me yet? From the very beginning there is matter vs antimatter and there was "War in heaven" between those two. Matter won. There was a bit more matter than antimatter.
In the beginning of Earth's history humans could not have lived here because there was way too much CO2. Bacteria came and then you had photosynthesis which then created O2 or oxygen. I could keep giving examples but the point is that, like grades in school, the natural world has requirements to get from one stage to the next and it all happens automatically... naturally.
What you're saying is that the design means that there is a designer. However, if there was a designer then there's no reason for any of the complex physics that explains snowflakes or any of the millions of years of plant respiration to create our environment. And because everything evolves (which has been observed in laboratory conditions with many generations of bacteria) someone didn't just create everything to our current requirements; rather we evolved along with the environment, adapting and improving.
If a creator could exist without, and please really think about this, without any kind of natural environment like we have now: air, water, etc. then this means life (his or hers) doesn't need these basic elements to exist. So why create them if your goal is to create more life? And why limit that life to where it is so frail and dependent on these elements? We take for granted that we have food instead of asking why a creator would make our bodies require food in the first place. Do you know what we've had to do just to eat? Do you know how much suffering has been caused just from our physical needs of survival? But this is the body you say was perfectly created.
Well how is it perfect when it requires so many hours of sleep? We build machines that never sleep. We say God never sleeps or slumbers. So why are we so limited in ways that threaten our own survival? And while I'm at it... why do I have nipples? What purpose do they serve? Why do you have an appendix? What purpose does it serve? Why do I have an over sized tongue that causes me to stop breathing at night? I wasn't fearfully and wonderfully made. I, like many other humans, are broken in many different ways. And even if you say "well that's genetics and sin caused that to mess up" why is something non physical able to influence the physical function of a supposedly perfect bio mechanical machine?
And why does that machine only get 2 sets of teeth and no more? Let me stop.
What we conceive as perfect is actually far from it. But we're very grateful to be alive and humbled by the awesome design and symmetry of the natural world. It's not perfect but its perfect to us. The tongue of the giraffe, imo, proves it wasn't designed because no designer would take it work that way.
At some point this comes down to a battle between magic and science. Science says, if you add this thing to that thing, this will happen. Magic says, I can makes that happen without anything because I'm magic. Magic doesn't need to use science to explain itself because anything is possible. Magic doesn't need complex systems of moving parts. Magic doesn't have requirements.
The whole point of using God to explain nature is that humans don't understand the science of life so this is where you get the "god of the gaps" theory where everything we don't know is simply explained by saying "god did it". Don't understand snow and lighting? "God did it". But if God is responsible for these things then it takes away the scientific reasons they have to occur. And so if there is a scientific reason for these phenomena that we can see then it suddenly takes one more gap away and its like stripping God of a power we only thought that he had. And we've been stripping God of these so-called powers for a long time but it was only ever just our ignorance. Our ignorance NEEDS God.
(so does our arrogance. No one wants a monkey for an uncle.)
The design in nature is caused by the nature of the elements themselves. It's kinda like building blocks. You can stack them together because they have flat surfaces. When you're building something with them you are aware of those surfaces and use them to your advantage. But if you dumb a bunch of blocks on the floor it is likely that some will end up on top of others. Even though there was chaos, some random block will end up stacked on another block. Nature simply does this an infinite number of times and the characteristics of groups of blocks changes how they interact with other groups of blocks. So we can build from these blocks without being the ones to MAKE the blocks.
But if you were magic why would you need to use blocks at all? If you wanted create a castle, just create a castle. Why stack blocks if you don't have to? Why does anything in creation make sense if it doesn't have to? If it has to follow the rules of physics then it suggests that even some magical being we imagine must have to follow rules and laws himself! Otherwise, why would he? So which came first? The creator? or the rules that his creations all abide by? And if his creation must follow the rules of physics, then how is he not also bound to the same rules?
A star doesn't need to know or understand its own gravity in order to have gravity. It has gravity simply by virtue of having mass. No one created the gravity of a star. It's a natural consequence of its physiology. Everything in nature is the same way. Everything has traits that interact based on the laws of physics. If you're telling me God created life by speaking it into existence but that life is based on cells and those cells have tiny engines inside and a tiny computer and database inside, I'd say your mode of creation (magic) doesn't fit with the logical nature of creation itself.
But this is, again, where the gaps come in. It's hard to imagine how that tiny computer got there. Because we're used to thinking in terms of artificial and mechanical systems; light switches. A single switch is very simple but add another switch and now its a system twice as complex. A single cell organism is very simple but add another cell and now its twice as complex. The complexity we experience is an integration on the macro scale of all these very tiny systems. Our own brains achieve consciousness, not by one lone neuron, but many working together. It is through that cooperation that complexity and design is achieved. When you have molecules working together they can connect in different patterns by virtue of their shape which creates points at which they are more likely to bond. Men and women... have "shapes" that create points at which we're more likely to bond. It all seems to be too much to conceive of and yet its not too much because one mind doesn't conceive of it all. It's an infinite number upon an infinite number of microscopic systems, all cooperating to achieve, not the whole world, but their own function. Each molecule in their air is unaware of its place in the "sky" just like each of your cells is unaware that it is part of your body. Earth is unaware of its place in the solar system; the solar system, the galaxy, the galaxy, the universe.
We're always trying to understand things by simplification. ONE GOD is the most simplistic answer you could possibly think of. But the universe as an infinite amount of matter with an infinite amount of possibilities. It is a system of systems of systems of systems of systems. Each system builds upon itself. And the more you can zoom out the more you see a different design that reflects both order and chaos.