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Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/14/2005 9:40:58 AM
Reply

I know that works reflect the faith of the person. But you are trying to switch it around so that satisfying the law becomes a requirement to be justified. This is contrary to the word of truth.
It is like this, take any person in the world, and let us ask ourselves how can we know whether or not that person is right with God. There are two possible methods for knowing:
1. Test all the person's actions and see if they are within the bounds of the law and then judge accordingly. This is the legal method of the old covenant.
2. Ask the person if they believe in christ. If they do then they are right with God, if they don't then they are not. The law doesn't come into the equation.

I am not trying to do away with the law. I am simply doing away with the law as a means of determining the worth of a person.
Here are some reasons why no law can ever prove someone's worth:
1. To use the law you have to be omnipotent, knowing every single cause and effect of every action.
2. The law can only tell you about the past, even if you are omnipotent so you can use it. It can't tell about the future, so a person trying to be right because of the law will be constantly retesting as time goes on. Sorry for him...
3. There is no forgiveness in the law. You are either one hundred percent perfect or you are out. If you believe that you have sinned, then you cannot look to the law to declare you pure, ever. Your past cannot be forgotten in the legal tradition, because it is a part of who you are.

So I hear you saying that people do wicked acts. How do you know they are wicked? Are you omniscient to know all the causes and effects of those actions? No, you are just bluffing.
So you want to use the traditional mob style for gaining support for your theories, you say "everyone can see those acts are wrong". Well, good for you and everyone. I don't see it, because my mind no longer works that way. Or you might use the bible or some other supposed authority and quote from it. Again, it doesn't convince me because I have a different interpretation

I am telling you to put the law behind you. Don't try to figure out that some actions are bad and some people are guilty. That is the way of hatred and self-denial, because you will never be able to live up to that judgment and neither will anyone else.

I do know that the law is in effect in creation, but we have to know that it is not our place to use the law to claim that other people's actions are good or not good, leave it to Jah. And we should not use the law to look over our own shoulders and try to judge our own actions either, leave it to Jah.
And I am not saying the law is useless, because it is something in our hearts by which the spirit guides and teaches us. But it is not to be used for judgement by us. Leave it to Jah.

Even to judge a single action by the law is beyond us, because we can never know the whole situation. So how do you talk about wicked acts and good acts? Bluffing, that's how.
This world is run by bluff. People talk about right and wrong when they have no knowledge of the whole situation. That's actually what runs the world, even down to the system.
Just let go of hate. Let go of the need to judge yourself and others in order to find out how they and you stand with God. It is a lie. Only in your heart can you know that you love God and that you serve him. The law cannot help you to know it, because it is on a level deeper than the law - the spiritual level, your heart.

Death to the pope, with no apology, and all his followers.


Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 1/14/2005 1:18:50 PM
Reply

Faith and Works belong together. Mistakes are ok. The fact that InI make mistakes does not mean there is no faith. But that also does not mean that faith is separate from works. There is a relationship and if a person has no good works the faith is not complete. It is impossible to have faith without any good works. Seen?

InI problem is that we have our own truth/beliefs and sometimes do not like to adjust it to the ultimate truth as it becomes clear.
Full faith or just Faith however you like to call it cant be fully separated from works.

Scriptures and common sense enter us and build a firm belief and then good works exit us. All that together determines the TRUTH and faith. Mistakes not mean there is no faith but faith does also not mean that there dont need to be any works. It is not clear cut. Omnipotent? no we are not but that is why we are saved by grace because we do make mistakes it helps us with our works and faith.

Seen?

Much love and respect to ALL

Praise the Allmighty JAH RastafarI

Bergy


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 1/16/2005 11:24:25 AM
Reply

Gideon, you still don't Iverstand, so let I put it this way.

If somebody pours water on your hair, your hair will be wet. If somebody says they poured water on your hair, but your hair is not wet, then that means that they didn't really poor water on your hair.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/16/2005 12:41:13 PM
Reply

Please explain what you are saying...


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 1/16/2005 11:08:56 PM
Reply

You said,
-----------------
I know that works reflect the faith of the person. But you are trying to switch it around so that satisfying the law becomes a requirement to be justified. This is contrary to the word of truth.
-----------------

You keep on going back to repeating that I am saying that the law is the requirement when that is not what I am saying. What I said in that last post is the same as the first sentence of yours that I just quoted "I know that works reflect the faith of the person."

So people that go against Jah ways may be moving towards faith in Jah and may have faith in certain areas, but their faith is not complete. But when a person's faith is One, then they will do what reflects their faith. Righteousness, the example of Jah.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/17/2005 9:28:18 AM
Reply

First you assumed that sometimes people follow God's guidance and sometimes they don't. That is the starting point of your reasoning, if you check it out.
But the starting point of my reasoning is that I assume that everyone follows God's guidance.
You explain problems in the world by saying that the faith of people is not complete. This implies that there is something wrong with them, and they lack God. You are saying that they are following a devil.
But I explain the things we don't like in the world like this: People all love Jah and follow only his guidance and no other. But because of ignorance of the situation, because of lack of education, people don't do as well as they could if they had more knowledge.
So you see, you condemn the people as wrongdoers who have followed a wrong path, at least to some extent. But I only condemn the system of the world that has caused us to come up without knowledge.

When someone does something "wrong", we should not say the person is not following Jah. We should say that they are not following Jah in the best possible way according to our knowledge. But the fact is that they are following him in the best way that THEY know about, so they are not to blame for the choice that they made. It was a good choice made in good faith and love of Jah. But they are just unknowledgeable of the reality of the situation they were in, due to miseducation. So they ended up not doing as well as they could.

Someone replied to me on this site that right and wrong is the same concept as right and less right. But they are missing my point entirely. We are talking about the heart of a person, and if what they do is done with good heart or a "bad heart".

Remember Jesus said it is your intention that is important, and if your intentions are good then you are okay. I say that everyone has Jah in their heart and this love is at the bottom of everything that everyone does. So there is no bad heart.


Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/17/2005 9:42:39 AM
Reply

As you rightly say, if people can't find a better solution to a situation then they choose the best way they can find. So don't blame a man if what they choose is not as good as what you could have pointed out to them. Blame the system that separated that man from the knowledge that could have guided him to a better choice.
When a man is faced with a situation he has to do something, so sometimes he does things that he knows could be better. It is the best he can do, so why call him a sinner, meaning that he was following the devil and ignoring Jah?


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 1/17/2005 2:40:05 PM
Reply

Gideon,

Your reasoning is just confusion. You think you can change everything according to your imagination. Well you can only change your own self with the foolishness you speak.

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 1/17/2005 7:03:41 PM
Reply

Brethren, Sistren please let LOVE reign over our reasoning,

I agree Ark I and TEF. There are people with evil intentions, not everyone has goodness as his/her guide. If we start reasoning down to the I than we will just start back and forth without any common ground. I do admit that in that matter we are going in circles with Gideon and cannot agree on fundamental things, respect to everyone's opinion.

I myself would like to know how old Gideon is because from some things the I is talking it seems like maybe some life experience is missing that makes some reasong naive. Please no offense!

We call all be good but some choose the other side rather than JAH side, by making many horrible choices.

Someone killing people has no good intentions. That person may be seriously ill or just so selfish that they dont care about other beings and dont understand or havent even heard the good news but they dont have good hearted intentions. There are exceptions.

Much Love,

Bergy


Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/18/2005 11:15:39 AM
Reply

The livity is very good.

This site is supposed to provide a forum for reasoning. Reasoning involves exchanging views and discussing points of view to establish their merit.
In order for anyone to use this site to refute or establish any idea, it must be done correctly. First understand the point totally and then describe the idea's failure and falseness so that it can be seen to be false.

I have been aware for a long time that you can see no sense in my views. Please note that doesn't mean that my views are not right.

What are we going to do?


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