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Messenger: Ark I Sent: 1/11/2005 12:32:40 AM


You said,

So now when I say that we only make good choices and we are not guilty it sounds like I am denying free will. But I never suggested that. We are free to do God's will. That's doesn't mean we are not free unless you assume to to be free means to be able to do evil.
Actually in your mind you have linked free will with the ability to do good or evil. So you will always doubt yourself if you think that way. You will always continue to look at your actions trying to judge them and see if they seem good or bad. And you will never be able to be spiritually free according to the tradition of Afreeca.
All this is the same reasoning about grace and works. What is going on is that you are trying to judge the value of your life according to the goodness or badness of your works. But faith in christ is about assuming on faith that what you are doing is good, so you don't look over your shoulder trying to figure out if your actions are good or evil.
Again I have to remind you that there are only two traditions, the way of faith in works and the way of faith in christ. That's basically what the bible is about and what Jesus and Selassie taught.

You say that Selassie I taught this thing that you speak, but that is not true. It is true that Selassie I taught faith in Christ over faith in works, but faith in Christ must result in good works, otherwise there is not complete faith. So I agree that Selassie I is in agreement with that last sentence of the quote, but not the rest of the quote. Selassie I taught people to judge themselves and live in righteousness, not to just assume everything you do is good, even if it is evil. Here is just a few of many quotes.

I would also tell him to learn and to think for himself the ways he would serve the Lord. In this thought and in this undertaking of his he will inevitably find the way of serving his fellow men. For his faith would then be manifested by His conduct. If Christians behave in this way, if we dedicate ourselves to this fundamental task, then we will have a peaceful world and will be assured of not transgressing against the will and the Commandments of God.

When Jesus Christ was born from Virgin Mary, from that time on He lived an exemplary life, a life which men everywhere must emulate. This life and the faith which He has taught us assures us of salvation, assures us also of harmony and good life upon earth. Because of the exemplary character of the life of Jesus Christ it is necessary that all men do their maximum in their human efforts to see to it that they approximate as much as they can the good example that has been set by HIM.

Leaders are people, who raise the standards by which they judge themselves and by which they are willing to be judged. The goal chosen, the objective selected, the requirements imposed, are not mainly for their followers alone.

They develop with consumate energy and devotion, their own skill and knowledge in order to reach the standard they themselves have set.

This whole-hearted acceptance of the demands imposed by even higher standards is the basis of all human progress. A love of higher quality, we must remember, is essential in a leader.

The true leader is one who realizes by faith that he is an instrument in the hands of God, and dedicates himself to be a guide and inspirer of the nobler sentiments and aspirations of the people.

He who would be a leader must pay the price in self-discipline and moral restraints. This details the correction and improvement of his personal character, the checking of passions and desires and an exemplary control of one's bodily needs and desires.

To be first in place, one must be first in merit as well.

I Iverstand that you are in agreement that we have free-will, but what the disagreement is, is that you say the evil is good. Selassie didn't teach this, and Yesus Christ didn't teach this.

The part of free will that you don't believe in is the free will that Jah gave us to be separate from HIM. Jah gave I and I the choice to be One or be separate. When we choose Oneness and have completed the choice, then we will only do righteousness because Jah deals with righteousness. How can a person be One with Jah and deal with what I, Yesus Christ, Haile Selassie I and many others call wickedness? If a person is One with Jah that means that they will have the character of Jah, and the character of Jah is righteousness.

Ark I
Haile Selassie I

Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/11/2005 9:30:16 AM

I know that faith always results in works. I never denied that.
But I am saying that no-one can be justified and made right with God because of their works. That is what the bible teaches.
The only way to be justified is by the grace and faith of christ. Definitely faith in christ does result in good works, but that is not the point. The point is that those works cannot justify anyone.

Also, it is good to do good works. Selassie did say this, but he never said that your good works can make you right with God.

The point is to be saved from separation from God. And the point is that works do not bring you closer to God. Being closer to God results in works, but not the other way around.
I will quote from the bible, and please bear in mind that the law is about right and wrong - works.

Galations 4:21 If the law could have given us new life, we could have been made right with God by obeying it.
Galations 4:24 The law as our guardian and teacher until christ came. So now, through faith in christ we are made right with God.
Galations 5:4 If you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from christ. You have fallen from God's grace.

Paul, just like Selassie in those quotes Ark brought, also encourages us to do good. But not so that we can be saved. Salvation does not come by works, but only by faith.

Philippians 3:9 I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law (right and wrong), but I trust christ to save me.
Colossians 1:22 Christ has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Let me give one last example, remember I am trying to make a point about how we should look at righteousness and the law. Selassie said that we should stay away from strong drink and everything that conscience speaks against. And this is true. But Paul says in colossians 2:16 Don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink.
In fact, please read the second chapter of colossians. The point of this chapter is that we are totally freed from having to answer to the law when we put our faith in christ. And remember the law is about right and wrong. It is not trying to say that right is wrong, it is saying that right and wrong don't matter to us who put our faith in christ. We don't live according to the law, because the power of the law has been broken.

I have not answered all questions here, but I have addressed the issues that were raised in your last posts.
The other part of the message I am bringing is that God doesn't forgive guilty people. That would not be right. He forgives people who used to FEEL guilty because they do not know about the faith of christ. But when they accept the faith they overcome doubt and fear because they no longer put their trust in the law and good works.

Messenger: the rock Sent: 1/11/2005 10:16:32 AM

I have know haith in a law, i have faith in people, ihave faith in myself, that come from knowlege of self.The fact that i have faith in Christ, is a bring together of the above. Christ being the son of God doing Gods work on earth then having faith in Christ will bring you faith in all things. I dont mean blind faith I mean the faith to understand the way of Nature. Even Christ said that its not what goes in the mouth that defouls the temple its what comes out. So I have no reasoning about food or anything like, but we were origionally talking about good and evil and then the infolable way that one can find the difference between the two. Faith in the father the son and the holy ghost would give you faith in yourself. If these things are seperate from you then how can you truly have faith? Faith is not seperate from ones beliefs, Faith cohesively seals them together. So let me ask are you sayin that when one has faith in Christ one does not go astray? One does not do evil? Even Christ's deciples had problems with staying in the rule of Christ, man is human. Back to something that i heard and posted a long time ago, i am not here to jugde from good or bad, i am here trying to stay in the right.


Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 1/11/2005 5:53:43 PM

"Faith and works go hand in hand" AGREED!!!

Not sure where I read this but it should be a Selassie I quote.

We have to become not only Historical Christians but Active Christians. This is not a direct quote, I dont remember the exact quote. If this is what HIM said I think it explains exactly what Ark I and Teff and others are reasoning and I can only agree with this statement.



Messenger: gideon Sent: 1/12/2005 9:59:38 AM

I agree that faith and works do go hand in hand, and I have said this already. That is not the issue.
The issue is that there is a forwards and a backwards way of understanding the concept that faith and works go hand in hand. If someone uses that concept to deny grace, by trying to be made right with God by works, then they have stepped out of the tradition of christ. That's all i'm saying.
The reason why I am making this point is that a lot of posts on this site seem to come from people who are forgetting or never learned about becoming right with God through faith.
Paul said clearly that if you think you can be made right with God by works that you are deceiving yourself. That is not to say that faith and works do not go hand in hand. All it is saying is that the root of salvation is faith, not works. Works are the fruit, and cannot by themselves bring you closer to God or make you right with him. If you know this then you know the gospel and you are free from the guilt and condemnation of the law. "Therefore there is no condemnation......."
IT SEEMS TO ME AT THIS STAGE THAT NONE OF YOU ON THIS SITE WANT TO DIRECTLY CONFRONT THE REAL ISSUE. The issue is are you trying to get right with God through works, or do you think that anyone can get right with God that way? Please note that I am not disagreeing with what anyone said. i know that faith and works go together. Can you please directly respond if you agree that works cannot save you in any way, or if you expect works to bring you closer to Jah.
Do you depend on works to justify you before God? Because if you do, then you are denying the faith that I am talking about, and you need me to tell you about it.
I gave you those tow quotes where Paul says he is not looking to his own goodness to save him, and I hope it's a misunderstanding but I get the feeling that you on this site are hoping for exactly that, salvation because of your goodness. You hope to become good in your works, and in that way to please God.
I gave you the other quote from Paul saying that if you look to the law then you do not have faith in christ. This shows that there are two and only two traditions and they cannot go together. So there is no way for you to avoid the fact that you are either for justification by grace, or justification by law - good works.
So let me ask each of you on this site directly, do you understand that it is either works or faith that you depend on for justification? And which one do you as a person depend on?
I, for one, depend on grace (faith). Like Paul, I do not look to the law to justify me before God in any way.
Please answer the questions I have asked. I think direct question deserves a direct answer.

Messenger: Ras ElIjah Sent: 1/12/2005 10:05:39 AM

You should each congradulate I'selves for your knowledge.

Ras ElIjah

Messenger: the rock Sent: 1/12/2005 10:40:34 AM


i have faith...then i work.... then i reap what i sow.

Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 1/12/2005 8:03:10 PM

Faith and works go hand in hand.


Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 1/12/2005 8:05:17 PM

Maybe so and grace will save InI without works. But the true life InI are meant to live is righteous and good. So lets do it!!!


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 1/13/2005 12:08:22 AM


You are only showing part of the story with the scriptures you show. I agree that we are saved through grace and faith in the Most High and not by works. What I am saying is that if there is grace and faith in the Most High, then the works will reflect that faith.

So to say that you are saved by grace or faith and at the same time deal with wickedness is where I disagree. Because as I have already said, when there is faith, then there is works, what is on the inside must come out.

The reason that the Ones that Live by the Grace of Jah are not under the law is because there is no law against righteousness, so the law is of no effect. But once their is sin, the we are not living by Grace or the Spirit of Jah, but we are living in the flesh under the law, because laws do exist against wickedness.

Here is a continuation of the same 5th chapter of Galatians that you quoted from. This will show more of a complete reasoning.

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Here is another scripture reasoning the same.

James 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So Like I said, what I disagree with is that you think that somebody who has faith in Jah can just assume that everything they do is acceptable to the Most High, even though it is known to be wickedness, as long as they continue to tell themselves that they have faith.

The reason I say continue to tell themselves that they have faith is because if they truly had faith, then there works would be the example of Jah, and Jah example is righteousness.

So I repeat, I am not talking about being justified by works. James says that we are justified by works and faith. What I am saying is that we are justified through faith and that with faith, works must follow, or else the faith is not true. So we are justified through faith, but I will say again, (because it seems that you don't address this part, and keep on going back and saying that I am talking about being justified by works), somebody who is justified by faith, actually has faith, and a person that has faith in Jah will listen to the direction of Jah, because it is Jah who they trust. And all who listen to the directions of Jah will do good works. They are not doing good works because they are trying to impress Jah with good works, and they are not looking for any reward for their works. They perform the works because that is the example of Jah, and that is what Jah directs them to do. This is the life of the faithful, complete faith in the divine directions Jah provides.

Ark I
Haile Selassie I

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