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Romans 7

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Messenger: gideon Sent: 7/22/2006 12:39:06 PM
Reply

For me, this is all about Africa and his majesty. Centralization and organization relies on sound doctrine. Without sound doctrine, people don't have the power to come together and unite in righteousness. Sound doctrine is the unifying principle that shows all good people that they are on the same side. If two people are good and love God, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be able to unite, because their may be problems with doctrine. So that is why I say these things.
There are many basic things about true doctrine that Ark is missing. He focuses on works and the flesh and tries to earn his salvation. He refuses the teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and his kingdom, and not by works. He is trying to pretend that he is pure in works, so that he won't have to condemn himself according to his false doctrine. So he avoids the issue of whether he is perfect or not. I have asked many times whether he sins or not, and he can never answer directly. He says "I am not perfect"; then he says "I reject temptation".
I think Ark is like the people Paul spoke of when he said, "when I didn't understand what the law required I felt fine".
Do you ever make a promise then fail to come through with it? Do you ever look at something someone has and wish you had it? Do you ever feel malice or resentment toward people made in God's image? Do you ever make any mistakes at all, or are you perfect in all your ways? Are you perfect, or a sinner?
"If you are trying to make yourself right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ". "When I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ." " If we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die."

I don't necessarily believe that the bible is inerrant, cuz I don't know about all the things it talks about, so I can't make that statement. But I do know that the message of grace is true, because I see it myself.
It is practically impossible to read the bible and not see that it is all about grace. I like Paul, for this topic right now, because he talks about grace vs works directly, in a straightforward way. So it is impossible to reject the true doctrine without contradicting what he says. Ark can never read these things I've quoted in their context. He has to read a part at a time, so he can twist the meaning to make life about law and works.
"If we say we have no sin we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth."

So this is all about Africa, because we cannot unite without sound doctrine. The heart and the mind come together with sound doctine, so that we can have a real national movement. That's why it is so important to me to break down the illusions maintained by Ark and others who think the same way. I will work to show the world that those teachings are about hate and low self esteem, and that they fight against the true gospel of Christ.

Ark, grow up. We're all regular people here, God's children. If I say shut up it is not malice and hatred, it is culture. Until you agree to culture you will not be able to accept people as who they really are. You will just try to make the world into your imperfect image.
Where I come from we play dozens and we are always in mock battles, and it proves that we are friends. That way, we know that we can all be comfortable and free to be who we are. Where you're from, people try to act a certain way they think LOOKS right. It is all about pretense and low self esteem.
Natural.
Listen, I am not better than anyone. But I am blessed more than I can imagine, so that I even question God if this could be right, and how he could be so good to me. Amazing grace to a wretch. So don't think I am boasting. I was just blessed to grow this way and to learn these things and see the true doctrine. It is in the bible and in nature, if you just humble yourself to see it. It is peace and life and joy, and anything that fights against this true doctrine is darkness and doom.
I'm not trying to force my views, but to reason with you all as people to people, that's all. I am just a regular man. Not to long ago I was running around my yard in underwear chasing birds and so on.


Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 7/22/2006 5:54:08 PM
Reply

Ones faith is justified by his works. Doctrine isn't unifying anyone.


Black up Africa now


Messenger: Empress Nzingha Sent: 7/22/2006 6:13:48 PM
Reply

What concern of your should it be how Ark I lives his life? If he is striving for perfection than that is what he is doing. Who are you to demand of an upright man that he defend himself to your lifestyle. There is never a reason for gentleman to disrespect each other. You can debate without bullying. A rightious man respects a rightious man. He does not drag a good man into the street for his missed steps. He seeks to discretly educate or assist a good man on his path to rightiousness, or he respects a good man's ability to govern himself.




Africa is a piece of land. All land is one land. Even the ocean has a floor.
The problem with many people is that they seek to claim Africa while disregaurding Africans and the African diaspora.
If you are not an African and you are seeking to claim Africa you are participating is a counterevolutionary idea, the idea of colonization. Many would argue that we are all Africans, life began in Africa, etc. While this is true the fact of the matter is that some people left. They resettled and stayed long enough to adapt to their new environment and have not evolved much since. If you are not physically adapted to life in Africa, you are not an African.

Halie Selassie I is no longer occupying that body. Therefore, His Majesty does not need your assistance only your understanding. You cannot disregaurd some statments made by a prophet to benifit the people who follow their words. You must either accept someone as infalable or as a human being.

Why can't we unite without sound doctrine?
What did people do before the written word, before the spoken word?

Playing the dozens is a product of mental enslavement. It is a process which honors a tradition of enstilling mistrust amongst slaves so that their master's could utilize informants to keep track of slave rebellion.

Universal law says what you put out will come back to you.


Messenger: Dread Lion Sent: 7/22/2006 7:44:58 PM
Reply

gideon bredrin,

Iman overstand the I's earnestness and desire for Truth, but the I says some things that just fly in the face of reason and frankly sound ridiculous.

I speak of things like: "I was just blessed to grow this way and to learn these things and see the true doctrine. It is in the bible and in nature, if you just humble yourself to see it."
and
"It is practically impossible to read the bible and not see that it is all about grace."

And the I accuses the Ras Ark I of twisting the meaning of scripture! The I's "true doctrine" is for the I and noone else and it does not invalidate anyone elses relationship with the Most High.

Being disrespectful is not "being real", and its not being Rasta in Iman opinion. So, please gideon, try to treat InI on this forum with the humility respect and love that both Jesus and Selassie showed to the world. Give Thanks.

ONE BLESSED LOVE IN THE NAME OF THE ALMIGHTY I JAH RASTAFERI









Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 7/22/2006 10:07:20 PM
Reply

Uh huh.

Build up Africa now.

"We stand today on the stage of world affairs, before the audience of world opinion. We have come together to assert our role in the direction of world affairs and to discharge our duty to the great continent whose two hundred and fifty million people we lead. Africa is today at mid-course, in transition from the Africa of Yesterday to the Africa of Tomorrow. Even as we stand here, we move from the past into the future. The task on which we have embarked, the making of Africa, will not wait. We must act, to shape and mould the future and leave our imprint on events as they slip past into history."


"An awareness of our past is essential to the establishment of our personality and our identity as Africans."

"We are meeting here today to lay the basis for African unity. Let us, here and now, agree upon the basic instrument which will constitute the foundation for the future growth in peace and harmony and oneness of this continent. Let our meetings henceforth proceed from solid accomplishments. Let us not put off, to later consideration and study, the single act, the one decision, which must emerge from this gathering if it is to have real meaning. This Conference cannot close without adopting a single African Charter. We cannot leave here without having created a single African organization possessed of the attributes We have described. If we fail in this, we will have shirked our responsibility to Africa and to the peoples we lead. If we succeed, then, and only the, will we have justified our presence here."


You know who said it.

Black African King Haile Selassie I





Messenger: gideon Sent: 7/23/2006 3:50:30 AM
Reply

It's a sad day, truly. I never said anything disrespectful, but look how people are accusing me. And then another man say I making illogical claims, and he can't say how and when and why the logic is bad.
I've only been reasoning, never fighting or insulting anyone. I don't put anyone down, and I never implied that Ark should be viewed as less because of anything he did or said or thought. I am not against anything anyone does, ever. It was never my intention to make anyone feel that I am fighting their tradition. Do what you do, that is a given!
Do we have to go over the same ground over and over? As that quote Dreadnut brought says, we must build on a solid foundation, and move forward, not keep rehashing basic things. The things I say should be taken in a context that we have already established the basics.
Like, when Ark said that he didn't have to shut up when I said to shut up, why did he feel the need to say that? The only reason can be that he was thinking that I thought that he had to shut up just because I said so. All the time I see people taking my statements out of context.
Isn't it understood that a man is free to do his own will?
The fact is that we can never hope to understand eachother without a context that we all agree to. I thought, coming to a rasta site, that people would already agree on certain basic things. Basically, I have made my statements assuming that people agree to culture. Agriculture is the basis of society, without that understanding anything you say can and will be used against you, as has happened with me in this topic.
Look, I am just a man talking to people. My views can be backed up with clear, concise and logical explanations from nature, that any man can understand and see if he takes the time to consider the reasoning quietly. So it is not appropriate to say that I am illogical without saying where! If you have a complaint, be clear about it and give me the chance to defend my reasoning. By the way, that is a suggestion, okay. I'm just saying I feel that is the best way for you to respond, okay?
Shit man.
You people don't know these things?

Empress Nzingha, thank you for the ocean floor thing. That is great. I always appreciate images that make things easier to see.

So, you people are always polite and so on? You don't tell people to shut up and grow up and stuff like that? Come on, man.
If you're really feeling that way, then it is real when you say it. It is not disrespect because I don't feel disrespect to anyone. If you read my words looking for disrespect you will find it, but if you look for love you will find only love. And you will find that I never ever forget the laws of Zion, like every man makes his own way and choice.
My motive for talking about these things is so that people who listen will make the world a better place by seeing more clearly. It's all about them being THEM, not me, or my follower or slave or whatever. That's why I always give reasons, and anyone responding should respond with reasons also, or question my reasons directly and allow me to respond.
If I'm wrong, then show where I am wrong, the way I have done with Ark's reasonings. I consider it an act of friendship and love if you show me the error in my thinking, or show me proof that my thinking is wrong. Would you?


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 7/23/2006 4:26:44 AM
Reply

Gideon, I will explain what I said because you take two small set of words and make claims about what I said. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. In summary, Yes, I do sin from time to time, but I trod is to move away from that by refusing temptation. I don't always succeed in refusing it, but I will never stop resisting it until I am succesful in refusing it.

I said,
--------------------
To answer your question, yes, you are misunderstanding I. I don't condemn Iself, I just know how I must trod and I will trod this way and refuse any urge or tempation to trod away from it, until temptation cannot even enter I thought.

I am not perfect, I am trodding to RasTafarI and RasTafarI is helping I perfect I ways. As long as I have breath, Selassie I has given I another second to Live by the example of Haile Selassie I.
--------------------

When I sin in thought or action I have failed to refuse it, that is why I am not perfect. When I wrote the sentence I maybe didn't order it properly so I can see how somebody could see it differently if that is what they wanted to see.

I was saying that I know how I must trod, and the way I must trod is to refuse any urge or tempation (in order to) trod away from it, until temptation cannot even enter I thought. And because I know how I must trod "I will trod this way", instead of trodding the way of the world and thinking that I can't ever resist all temptation.

I am curious if other people interpreted that paragraph the same way as you did. Even though I can see how it can be misinterpreted, I would think that most people would get what I was saying. And because you have been on this forum for so long, it is hard for I to believe that you haven't seen from I reasoning that I have never claimed to be perfect and that I have never claimed that I don't sin, I only say that I trod to be that way and I refuse to doubt that I can one day trod without sin.

I could be wrong, but it looks to I that you are just trying to find ways to misrepresent what I deal with, even though you know that your accusations are not true. Show I one place in all I reasonings in the history of this forum that I said that I was perfect?

And even if you somehow forgot that I have never claimed to be perfect and I have never claimed that I don't sin, what makes I wonder about your intentions is that I explained myself farther. So it is hard to believe that after I explained Iself, you still don't see what I was saying.

I said,
------------------------
If I was condemning myself, I would not change anything I do, say and think and I would not trod towards Oneness with God, I would pretend that I was perfect and be condemned by my illusion.
-------------------------

If I was claiming to be perfect why would I say that I would be condemning myself if I dealt with illusion and pretended that I was perfect and didn't need to change anything I do, say and think. Because I know that I am not perfect and I know that there are things I need to change about Iself, I don't deal the illusion that I am perfect.

I Itinued to say,
------------------------
But I don't deal with illusion and I don't condemn Iself. RasTafarI condemns all wickedness within and outside of myself. And I burn the wickedness in I thoughts and actions until they are no more.
------------------------

Again, if I was saying I was perfect and don't sin, why would I say, "And I burn the wickedness in I thoughts and actions until they are no more." If I was perfect, what would I need to burn? Some of my sins are no more because I have succeeded in burning them out and they no longer tempt I, and I will Itinue to blaze Fire until the rest of I sins and temptation are no more.


Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I





Messenger: gideon Sent: 7/23/2006 3:19:38 PM
Reply

It seems that I have been too caught up in my focus on the issue. I was looking for a specific form of response, like: "Yes, I am a sinner". This wasn't reasonable of me.
However, on the other hand, this topic was introduced by me, and I think I deserve a straight answer.
For me, I will put this whole thing down to people being different and approaching things from different angles, so that it is hard to see from the other person's perspective even though in essence what you're saying may be the same.
I always knew this was the case, but I couldn't see how, so we had to go through the process to see where we stand. I did this because I feel that it is very important that we come to a stage where we can identify ourselves with a common doctrine, as I have said.

My whole thing is that I have been focusing on the topic of salvation. The Christian doctrine has always been that you accept that your flesh is wrong and messed up and that it cannot help to make you a better person. Then you identify yourself with your spirit and not your flesh.That is basically what Ark says when he says, blaze the fire on the wickedness in my own actions and thoughts. I see that now, but you had to say it twice.
The thing is Ark, that I started this post reasoning down a certain line and that is why I was looking for the response in a certain form. You responded in a totally different form.

Ark, you said:
Some of my sins are no more because I have succeeded in burning them out and they no longer tempt I, and I will Itinue to blaze Fire until the rest of I sins and temptation are no more.

Here, you are talking about two I's. There is I the flesh and I the spirit. The I that burns out wickedness is the spiritual I. The I that sins is the physical I. Clearly this is an easy concept to miss the first time you read it. My fault.

Anyway, moving forward:
This concept of the spiritual self at war with the physical nature is what I've been trying to focus on. That is what I see as the meaning of the Kingdom of Christ and the blood of Christ.
My point has been that when you realize the flesh is bad, you do not rely on it to produce anything of value, but you rely on the spirit of God to use that flesh to produce things of value.

I will apologize for this much:
I have recently come to understand the Christian form of this teaching, and I have been focusing only on that form. So although you were not saying anything different I was unable to see that it was not different, because I was focusing too much on the form and not on the substance. I was limited because I am new to the thing. I actually first came to the knowledge of spirituality through rastafari, but only later came to understand the importance of Jesus Christ and his ministry.

There is a contradiction (I mean a paradox, not a lie) deep down in the gospel, and we should expect that it is natural for people to encounter this kind of problem talking about it.

For me, I want to show rasta people that what Paul talks about and what Christians believe is not something wrong or unnatural. It just sounds that way.

My mission in this post has been and will continue to be clarifying this thing of different ways to describe the same thing. I want to show rasta people that what Paul and Christians believe (or know, I mean it in the same sense) is not as strange as it seems to someone outside. I also want to show christians about the revelation of Selassie and the natural order. I am also engaged in this aspect of the problem, but obviously not on this site, since this is a rasta site.
Every time I talk on this site, people interpret that I am saying works are not meaningful. What I am saying is that works are not the source of anything, but a manifestation.
When people talk about works as Ark does, it is easy for people to think he is saying that he relies on works to bring him closer to God and that he does not understand that they are just a manifestation, and not a thing in themselves. That has been the major issue here.
I think that what we all can gain from this exchange in the end is that it is important, especially when talking to christians, to state clearly and explicitly that you do not overestimate the significance of works.

It seems to me that in essence you accept what I say, but because of the radical style in which I say things, and the fact that you are coming from a different angle, you felt that I was saying something different. But it also seems that you haven't fully come to terms with the truth of the doctrine of Paul from Christ, or with how he puts it over, which is useful for clarity. All scripture is useful for teaching and reproof and so on.

There is something about the way you talk that makes me feel that you haven't let go comletely of your attachment to works, in the sense of making you a better person. It seems that you think that your own efforts can bring you closer to perfection, whereas I've been saying that only God can do that. Your effort has nothing to do with anything. You still couch the teaching of redemption in phrases that seem to connote pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, which is not possible. I see this when you said:
"Yes, I do sin from time to time, but I trod is to move away from that by refusing temptation. I don't always succeed in refusing it, but I will never stop resisting it until I am succesful in refusing it."

I prefer you to say it like this: "Physically I am not perfect and I am a sinner, but God has blessed me with the gospel (his word of truth) so I know that he is still bringing me physically to him and my flesh is not condemned for my physical shortcomings. I know he will bring me home to Zion."

You see the difference?
It is about who you give the credit, and who you feel is responsible for your progress.



Messenger: gideon Sent: 7/23/2006 3:49:52 PM
Reply

It's all about saying: "The son can do nothing by himself, but it is the Father that works through the son."
When you say, "I trod on" it sounds like you are giving yourself the credit, saying you are responsible.
My point is that we are the female principle in the process of salvation. We receive it, we do not procure it for ourselves by what we do. We receive it, and this (over time, and in different ways for different people) changes how we act, which makes us happy. My point is about the order in which things happen.
Putting undue emphasis on the importance of works is wrong, because it sounds like you are relying on works in itself to help you.


Messenger: Ark I Sent: 7/24/2006 1:29:47 AM
Reply

Gideon, what we are saying is probably similar, but I don't know if it is the same. I agree that nothing can be done without the Most High. I will try to explain I thinking so you can see exactly what I am dealing with, I will try to go in enough detail so that what I am saying is clear, but if you want more detail or explanation about a particular part, then ask.

The way I sight is the combination of the two ways of thought that you put forward. I feel that I make the choice to do something, for example, if I don't like something that I do or think, I resist the thought (sometimes succesfully, sometimes not), but I can't resist the thought alone, it is the Most High RasTafarI Haile Selassie I that gives I strength to resist the thought and gives I direction to resist the thought, I can do nothing unless the Creator shows I the direction and gives I the strength.

As Selassie I say,


Whatever the task may be, man may begin it but he cannot complete it, unless God sustains and supports him. If he fails to accomplish the task on which he has set out, having worked to the best of his ability, he is not to be maligned by being called lazy.



To explain farther what I am saying, I feel that the problem people were having before Christ (and still have after Christ) was that they became very physical and walked with a carnal mind. They left behind the most important teaching that was there from the beginning, to communicate with RasTafarI and listen to RasTafarI's direction that Jah is Itinually giving I and I. So instead of listening to Jah, they tried to do things themselves, but their direction can't be compared to the Creator's direction. So they weren't able to live without sin because they didn't have God as their rudder. Instead they just judged each other and performed the same sins themselves or performed other sins in its place. They were sinners who were under the law.

So what Christ taught was for people to remember to communicate with Haile Selassie I and listen to the direction of the Most High. Only when God is their rudder will they be able to overcome and Live by the example of the Creator.

Where our personal effort and choice comes in is our choice to communicate with Selassie I and our choice to listen to the direction of the Most High. Without the strength provided by Jah, we would not be able to accomplish this. Also, without our choice and effort, we would not accomplish this.

(side note: what I mean by choice and effort, if I decide to move I leg one step, I have made a choice, and when I take the step I have put the effort, and the step was possible only because of the strength and direction provided by Jah, strength to move the leg, and direction of how to move the leg)


Concerning the works, what I am saying is not to concentrate on the works as the solution, but look at communicating and listening to the direction of the Most High. Concerning the works again, if a person has accomplished the most important thing, communicating and listening to the direction of the Most High, then all there works will be by the example of the Most High, because if a person is truly listening to the direction of the Most High, they can only walk in righteousness and cannot deal with sin, because Jah will only guide those that choose to heed his words into righteousness and will never guide them into sin.

So any day I sin in thought or action it is because I don't listen to RasTafarI, but instead I listen to my own foolishness. And it is not because of the Creator that I am not able to listen, it is only because I am not doing my part. If I am doing my part, then it will happen in an instant, because the Creator is always doing Jah part without end or delay.

So when I see that I do or think something that feels like wickedness, I consider the sight that showed I that it is wickedness, as the direction of the Most High. So it is my choice to listen to Selassie I direction and walk in righteousness or ignore it and continue in the wicked action or thought. And when I make the choice to resist it, Jah will direct I and give I strength to do it.

Here is a reasoning I made before.

-------------------------------
Jah created Humans, and made them male and female. And Jah created I and I with many different abilities. So when we exercise our abilities, it is not new Creation from Jah, but it is the usage of our abilities that were Created within us when Jah Created Humans. And One of the abilities Jah gave I and I is the ability to see and choose good or evil works. Jah created I and I in Jah image, so just as Jah has will and choice to do what Jah decides to do, I and I have been Created with will and choice to do what we decide to do.

Jah has shown us Jah example many times in history, as seen in the bible and other scriptures. And Jah Itinues to show us Jah example so that I and I can learn and Live the same. So this is the quest Jah has sent I and I on, to be One with Jah in completeness, by Living by the example of Jah.

When we Live by the example of Jah as shown by Christ and Haile Selassie I, then I and I will be One with Jah with no separation. I and I were created to be One, but given the choice to be separate. It is our mind that completes our Inity or causes separation from Jah.

Jah is not looking for a puppet that doesn't know what they are doing, but only moves according to the strings. Jah is developing and raising One as HIMself, that knows and chooses, but always chooses the right.
-------------------------------


Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I


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