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The Horrors of Communist China

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Messenger: Nesta1 Sent: 12/5/2018 5:04:59 AM

"Socialism, communism, and all forms of economoc [sic] dependency are death. Free market capitalism, free from fiat currency and insider trading, is the only proven path to true economic independence. "

Hmmm. There are so many things wrong about this statement that i don't think i'll even try to get into an argument about some of the socialist economies which have done just fine or the fact that all of the world's capitalist economies (even the good ole USA) incorporate some degree socialism (e.g., the government of the USA has always played some role in the economic affairs of the nation. Over the course of its history, many services began to come under the influence or direct control of the public sector.). A "true" or "absolute" free market economy requires that all property be owned by private individuals and all goods and services be privately provided. Prices are allowed to fluctuate based on supply and demand, and all transactions are voluntary, not compelled or restricted by the government.

Tack on "free from fiat currency and insider trading" and you don't really have any extant economy that meets all of those criteria, so its difficult to see how this can be "the only PROVEN path to true economic independence" [EMPHASIS ADDED]. Your contention is that an economy that incorporates socialism is "death". -- there's that hyperbole again.

If you go ahead listen to what Dr. Moyo is actually talking about, she makes quite a bit of sense. To allay concerns arising from your inherent capitalist bias, at the end of the day Dr. Moyo is pro-capitalism and pro-liberal-democracy. You should actually try listening to what she says as it is very intelligent and enlightening economic/political analysis.

Messenger: IPXninja Sent: 12/7/2018 10:13:42 AM

"Socialism, communism, and all forms of economoc [sic] dependency are death. Free market capitalism, free from fiat currency and insider trading, is the only proven path to true economic independence. "


Every nation hides, to some degree, the social impact of its policies. 98% of the wealth in America is owned by 2% of the population. That alone is all one needs to condemn this current form of capitalism (which for the record is not pure capitalism).

The other part is that whenever you have corrupt people they influence whatever form of government and whatever form of economy you have because these are simply rule-based systems that can be hacked.

Plenty of people die in the US from poverty. More than plenty of people in the US are absolutely dependent on the system and upon others around them.

And even if they can get jobs wages are so stagnant that they often have to hold 2 jobs to survive.

The problem is that is hard to criticize one system without having a better answer.

I think socialized medicine works. I think some systems could work better in a more socialist or communist model. Like education. And then business could be both private and public because some industries could have a government option with limited budget so that the competition can be regulated and balanced. Right now we're giving tax dollars in the form of subsidies to corporations and it doesn't necessarily translate to benefitting average Americans. We also give subsidies to help our companies compete globally and sometimes they leave and move their headquarters anyway. The key is you got to get the corrupt people out of the way and end the rule of conservatives because they're more interested in the past than the future. And then you can have an honest and scientific approach to which system is the best for which situation.

Messenger: Nesta1 Sent: 12/7/2018 11:09:13 AM

Good points. What seems to be shaking out after a couple centuries post industrial revolution experimentation with economic theories is that the best functioning of the existing economies are hybrid or 'mixed' economies where there are both capitalism and socialism. These mixed economies consist of both private companies and government/state-owned entities, and both public & private entities have control of owning, making, selling, and exchanging goods in the country. (A big "Yes" to socialized medicine! The U.S. medical system is an national disgrace. Universal access for anyone and everyone to purchase Medicare would be a good start at reform.)

Corruption is a tough nut to crack as it always seems to accompany the handing over to people greater responsibilities and control over greater amounts of wealth. Ironically, Cuba probably has the least government corruption of any nation that i'm familiar with because getting caught being involved with corruption there is a public disgrace for both the guilty party and his/her family. Meaning it's less by fear of punishment and more by fear of public humiliation that corruption is kept at bay in Cuba.

The countries in which i have lived, both in Asia and Latin America, are just like the U.S. in that corruption of politicians & government officials is just a given and people seem to accept it as inevitable/unchangeable. Of course, you've also got the element of American people in total denial who will say things like "Corruption? What corruption? We don't have corruption in our government!"

Messenger: Nesta1 Sent: 12/7/2018 1:06:03 PM

The commentary below (written by a commenter on Quora) just resonated with me so well that i had to reproduce it here. I&i reminded so much of my career in Babylon busy-ness (i.e., consulting environmental engineering) when i used to meld the Teachings of JAH with the work we were doing as best as I&i could (at least i wasn't building weapons for the Death Machine). i'd say to my colleagues, "no matter how low and despicable the dirty tricks of our competition are, we will stick to the high road and continue to even work harder on delivering high quality services and adhering to the highest ethical standards". Even people in my own company thought i was crazy (or naive) at times but guess what? Our business unit was consistently and sustainably the highest revenue achiever and most profitable for the two decades that i was its manager. And cut throat competitors kept losing to us. China is using the same "take the high road" approach in dealing with the dirty tricks of a jealous and amoral competitor and i'm certain will reap the same benefits that we did - only in China's case it isn't driven by JAH Teachings but simply by thousands of years of Confucian wisdom.

It should go without saying that my excitement over China's economic rise, which is pulling million of people in developing nations (not just China) out of poverty, does not constitute an endorsement of any of China's bad deeds or abuses of human rights. It would seem unnecessary to point that out, but at least one person on this forum is so obsessed with interpreting ANY positive comment about China's activity as a blanket approval of everything it does, that i do need to clarify even the obvious.

QUORA: "Should China abandon its Made in China 2025 plans to avoid stepping on the USA?"

America sucker-punches a major trade partner (China). China then - instead of doing an ‘Uncle Sam’ and melting down into a combination tantrum/roid-rage conniption - straightens its tie and suit-jacket and says “That’s disappointing. I thought better of you. Please refrain from embarrassing and hurting yourself in an effort to extort hard-earned yuan from our hard-working workers. If you try taking rice from their bowl and milk from their babies it won’t go well for you.” China did exactly the right thing in these circumstances. Knowing its own strength and the attitudinal sea change in the global community it knew it would benefit more in the big picture and long term from ‘not loosing its sh*t’.
America’s self-absorption tends to reduce the rest of the world to a background blur. China, while focused on translating international trade relations into fast and sustainable improvements in the average citizen’s quality of life, disposable income, and thus ability to contribute more to the cycle of economic growth, has looked for under-served markets - offering infrastructure that catalyses growth in emerging economies. Companies like Huawei commit to creation of a needed support system - and then sell quality smart-phones at enticing price-points. It’s the same with other essentials like road and rail systems - and electrification - as examples. While ‘Made in China’ ‘dollar store’ consumer goods have become an increasingly vital part of low income Americans’ efforts to make their income go far enough - those same goods are within reach of households in those emergent economies as their disposable incomes rise. Add to these factors an accelerating increasing E.U. demand for Chinese manufacture - and China’s dependence on American consumer demand is rapidly waning. And with major American brand names dependent on Chinese manufacture to satisfy shareholder demand for an impressive return on their investment while remaining competitive with foreign offerings America’s big brands have more to lose as Trump bollixes-up delicately contrived and painstakingly nurtured synergies and interdependence on which 21st century profitability rely.
TrumpAmerica has plummeted so low in global esteem while China’s has risen that China effectively shrugging ‘Whatever’ to American petulance raises PRC prestige in populations on every continent. America reneged on the Iran nuclear nonproliferation contract painstakingly negotiated by all the nations on the U.N. Security Council - negotiations that began under President Bush (the younger) and was secured just prior to the end of President Obama’s tenure - a decade of dedication by a bunch of nations that secured an Iranian agreement to cease R&D on nuclear weapons. America reneged. Welshed on it. And drove the wedge even deeper between America and the friends it abuses - that has them stepping away from America and regrouping alone. Just as they did when America backed out of the Climate deal. Also, China, Japan, and South Korea have fast-tracked the creation of their own free trade area (sure to have other neighbouring (ASEAN nations lining up to sign up). And the PRC is making overtures to and friends of the E.U. - saying “we can work together to build a successful and sustainable global economic community". China’s idea asserts that trade and mutual interdependence is the best, really the only, way our shared futures can be secured and sustained.
The only people who want China to roll over and surrender to American wishes are Americans. They are alone in their desire - as they’ve chosen to be. That is what ‘isolationism’ does. And that is even more so what the current American version of isolationism does. If China were to cave to American bullying they’d lose globally. All China need do effectively supplant America as the heart of the global community is stand tall and firm, wipe Trumps spittle away, and keep on doing the things most of us appreciate - provide goods at the right price-point - and resist American efforts at coercion.

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