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Who are the Israelites???

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Messenger: Rainbow Circle Throne Sent: 6/27/2017 11:29:16 AM

I sight what the I is showing on the mixed thing. The Book of Ruth deals with the purity of the blood line, showing even King David wasn't pure blooded Israelite. Ruth was King Davids great grandmother and she was not a Israelite. That book was written for the zionists of that time, who were persecuting ones who weren't pure blooded Israelite.

I may be wrong, but I think your math is not right bredren, thats not how one calculates population growth. You can check the formula online.

Using your math 33(women) × 70(children)= 2,310 people from the 1st generation. Now I said that 69 children was the highest recorded amount that one woman had...

Take half of the 2,310 (like we took half of the 66) that is 1,155(women) × 70(children)= 80,850 people from 2nd generation
Half of them would be 40,425(women) × 70(children)= 2,829,750 people from the 3rd generation. 2,829,750 people within three generations.

Thats extreme though bredren lol! 70 children... Still though even with much less children, its still not impossible for them to reach 1.2 million in 400 years, starting from 66 and keeping it Israel.

Messenger: Rainbow Circle Throne Sent: 6/27/2017 11:29:17 AM

Messenger: John Sent: 6/27/2017 12:14:42 PM

Yeah, they could even have surpassed that limit if pharaoh had not killed many of the Israelites' male newborn children. Remember some men had numerous wives.

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/27/2017 11:26:27 PM

King, the mortality rate for births was up to 50% in ancient times at best. This has been recorded in ancient greece and ancient rome. As for Egypt during times of bondage / slavery you and I both know each woman was not giving birth to 7 let alone 70 children. So the math is alwayys going to be off. The nearest thing we can compare to would be population growth during chattel slavery which was nothing like this at all. If so, there would be hundreds of billions of Africans living in North America right now.

Again, only blind faith would leave ones to believe these numbers were true without mixup mixup.... blind faith like believe snakes can talk and noah can build ark for every living thing. These are logic defying leaps of faith with no tangible possibility.

But you have already provided scripture which denounces King David as even being of mixed blood making my original point. That this 'of the father' and 'of Abraham' rhetoric is foolishness. Israelites and Jews today still preach that they are ALL connected by blood to Abraham. This is false by virtue of the scripture, reason, logic etc... The nation of Israel is based off belief and not bloodline

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/27/2017 11:37:39 PM

Then of course we have the problem of if there were really 1-2 MILLION people wandering through the desert - there has yet to be any real archeological or historical evidence to support such a widespread exodus. This kind of mass movement of people would not have gone unrecorded or without tangible proof

"Over the past two centuries, scholars have questioned much of the Torah’s historicity. Although biblical archaeology began as an attempt to defend the historicity of the biblical narratives, more recently the findings of archaeology have become some of the chief obstacles to believing in the historicity of much of the Torah.

One serious problem with accepting even the broad outlines of the exodus and wilderness-wandering accounts is the great number of Israelites the Torah claims were involved: upwards of 2 million. Even scholars who accept some sort of historical exodus, such as Richard Elliott Friedman,[1] say that the numbers are impossible to accept.

Many Bible scholars dismiss the great numbers as fanciful, or as a late innovation by the Priestly author, not reflecting actual number of early Israelites. Nevertheless, for those scholars who wish to see the Torah as coming from one Author or as internally consistent, the census numbers have remained a serious problem.

We have witnessed a resurgence in attempts to interpret the census data in a way that reduces their numbers significantly. Professor Joshua Berman, for instance, offered a suggestion along these lines in his recentMosaic article, “Was there an Exodus?”  The following piece by Ben Katz is part of this trend."

The Problems with Understanding
the Term א;;ל;;ף;; as “Thousand”

Such a large population wandering in the Sinai seems impossible (there isn’t enough water to sustain them), neither does it fit with the archaeological record, since such a massive amount of people living there for forty years would have left a trace. In addition, a number of other biblical passages are internally inconsistent with a population of 600,000-plus adult males and their families.[4]

The First-Born Problem: Too Many Children per Family
The Torah twice states that there were about 20,000 firstborn males over one month of age (22,273 to be exact [Num. 3:39 and 3:46]). Since the total population of adult males over age 20 is a little more than 600,000, there were at least 580,000 non-firstborn males over the age of 20.[5] Since each family could have only one firstborn—and only half of these would be male—this implies families of at least 29 non-firstborn males to first born males (580,000 / 20,000), i.e., families of at least 30 males apiece, unless for some reason mortality of firstborns was very much higher than that of subsequent children, accounting for a lower ration of firstborns to subsequent children. Including females would roughly double these numbers, unless for some reason significantly more than 50% of firstborns were girls.

Other Biblical Passages Assume a Smaller Population
Many passages in the Bible characterize the Israelites as having a small population. Exodus 23:29-30, for example, states that one of the reasons God will not drive out the Canaanites from the Promised land all at once is “lest the land become desolate” because the Israelites will need time to “increase…and possess the land.”[6] Deuteronomy 7:7 states that the Israelites were “the fewest of all people.”[7] Finally, troop numbers mustered in later periods are lower than expected if 600,000 males of military age lived in the period of the wilderness. For example, Deborah is only able to raise 40,000 troops from six tribes (Judges 5:8).[8]

A Numbers Problem for Modern Readers

Pre-modern traditional Bible commentators were not concerned with this issue. In the modern period, however, these demographic arguments could not be ignored.

Aryeh Kaplan

Birthing Sextuplets and Firstborn Mortality: Aryeh Kaplan
Aryeh Kaplan deals with this issue in his Living Torah.[9] He begins by citing Rashi on Exodus 1:7, who comments on the six verbs used to describe Israelite fecundity in Egypt. Rashi claims that each woman gave birth to sextuplets.[10] This midrash was designed to explain how the Israelites multiplied from a family of seventy to a nation of two million in just a couple of centuries, but it could also be used to explain why families were so large.

Nevertheless, Aryeh Kaplan likely still preferred not to assume the existence of families of 30 male children apiece, so he explained the relative scarcity of firstborns by postulating other assumptions not found in the Torah. For example, he suggested that perhaps many firstborn males did not observe the first Passover in Egypt and consequently died there, thus lowering the ratio of firstborns to subsequent children, or that most of the firstborns were girls.

Baruch Levine
Baruch Levine

Exaggerated Numbers
Many modern Bible commentators—Baruch Levine, for instance[11]—treat the number “600,000” as exaggerated. The number, they claim, is meant to express the great numbers of Israelites in the wilderness. The reason the number is “six hundred thousand” and not, say, a million or five hundred thousand is based on the fact that the Torah works with a sexigesimal (base 60) system (as was common in ancient Mesopotamia).

William Albright
William F. Albright

Another possibility raised almost a century ago by William F. Albright, is that the numbers are anachronistic. Perhaps a later author, used to a larger Israelite population, projected current estimates back into the ancient past. Albright specifically suggests that the figure of 600,000 males derives from the time of David.[12] (Most current archaeologists and historians of the biblical period, however, strongly doubt that the population of ancient Israel ever approached the figure of two million.)

Flinders Petrie
Flinders Petrie

Alternative Approach: א;;ל;;ף;; means a Contingent
Another modern suggestion—first suggested by Flinders Petrie (1853-1942), is that א;;ל;;ף;;, usually translated “thousand,” should be translated like א;;ל;;ו;;ף;; (troop or contingent.)[13] Examples of this use of א;;ל;;ו;;ף;; include Exodus 15:15, “clans of Edom (א;;ל;;ו;;פ;;י;; א;;ד;;ו;;ם;;),” and Gen. 36:15-30 (also in regard to Edom).[14] It is this possibility that I plan to explore here.

Aside from the fact that א;;ל;;ו;;ף;; means contingent, in several instances in the Bible, the word א;;ל;;ף;; itself may not literally mean “thousand"... and can mean 'contingent'

OR - Garveys Africa say MIXUPP a happen and or the whole thing is a fantasy

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/27/2017 11:49:15 PM

The credibility of the logistics of the Exodus has been widely studied an criticized iah. I made this thread in part to show another example of error or fantasy over fact within the bible and to show that there is no true 'biological' israelite / jew

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/27/2017 11:49:16 PM

More Math problems:

Numbers 3:43 states that the number of firstborn males, a month or more old, was 22 273. However, if the number of males over twenty years old was 603 550, this implies a total number of males, a month or older, of about one million. If so the ratio of all males to firstborn males was about 50 to 1. The average mother must then have had about 100 children (50 sons and 50 daughters). This, one would do well to argue, is highly unlikely.

In Numbers 20:17 we see the Israelites asking for permission to “pass through your country. We will not go through any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway and not turn to the right or to the left until we have passed through your territory.”

Israel was requesting permission from the Edomites to travel through their land, promising to stay on a certain highway, and away from their resources. The same request is made to the Amorites in Numbers 21:22. The problem seems to be that if the population of Israel was around two million, then how could they possibly travel through on a single highway (them with all their possessions)? Granted that they ventured 10 abreast with only 10 feet between groups, the line would stretch out for nearly 400 miles.... IN OTHER WORDS: Moses said that Israel would stay directly on the narrow road through the country of Edom. If one mile of road could hold about 1000 Israelites with wagons, etc. (which is very reasonable), then the length of the Israelite march would be at least 2,500 miles long. Such a length of people would stretch from Egypt to the border of China.

In Exodus 23:29-30 God says that he “will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.”
It is quite clear that there were too few Israelites to occupy the Promised Land.
Yet and still, it is believe that the ruins of Jericho (the city that Joshua conquered) are still to be seen today + it’s an area of about ten acres. Professor Kenyon, who excavated the site from 1952 to 1956, says that the greatest population that Jericho could possibly have had was 3,000 souls. The area of Jericho was a little under two square city blocks. If we allow that Jericho had a population of 3,000 people, then the Israelites would have outnumbered those Canaanite residents over 800 to one if all the men were living. Some have wondered why God had to cause the walls to tumble down when Israel had such an extraordinary advantage.

In Exodus 17:8 a battle ensues between the Israelites and the Amalekites. However, a 600 000 strong Israelite army struggles to defeat them. In other words, an enormous army failed to overcome a group of tribesmen. According to the text “As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning.”
Were there also some 600,000 Amalekite soldiers out in the middle of the Sinai desert as well? While Israel had miraculous water and food to sustain them alive in such a desolate environment, did the heathen Amalekites also have the miraculous food and water supplies? How could such a vast heathen army provide for itself in such hostile conditions?

Deuteronomy 7:1 – “When Jehovah your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you.”

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/28/2017 12:14:02 AM

This topic deserved a separate thread than the classic burn jc and burn the bible thead lol its hard to skip around either the bible being false here, or there being no biological israel; and is a good exercise of logic vs faith. Keep these exercises up and this will help ones and ones to use their common sense instead of blind belief of texts written by men no more inspired by a higher being and no more factual than everyday writings of you or i

Guide and protect

Messenger: John Sent: 6/28/2017 12:17:30 AM

Have it the way you like it. I am still a black Israelite by bloodline. Whether you brush it off as fantasy or imagination, that is just your opinion, and it does not affect my blood descent from Adam and Shem and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. Yea. I am a physical generation of blood of Jacob.

Messenger: GARVEYS AFRICA Sent: 6/28/2017 12:20:36 AM

John.. you have Abrahams blood to test and verify? OR just talk and chattings?

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Haile Selassie I