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Messenger: Ark I Sent: 12/16/2004 12:59:32 AM

Ras Gordon, As long as the I still has breath in your lungs, Jah is giving the I the option to turn towards Jah and Live in Jah way. Here is a reasoning I made some time ago that relates to the question that they I asked. Nobody is free from sin, but that doesn't mean we can't be. This statement is just a reflection of reality. Because if I and I look around us or within ourself, I and I can see that it is true that no one is free from sin. But this statement shouldn't be seen as a limit. Because with Jah, every single one of us can be free from sin. Jah is capable of doing this. So I and I have to rise I and I mind above "try", and only see "do". Because "try" still holds doubt. If our faith is that I and I ways can't be accomplished completely in perfection, then it will never be accomplished. But if our faith is that it will be accomplished, then this is truth and I and I ways will be perfected by Jah. And it makes no difference how I and I lived in the past, because Jah forgives all iniquity of those that turn to him. The requirement of Jah is for I and I to live in his way, today, and in the future. He doesn't require this from the past. So as long as I and I have breath in our body, I and I is still given the opportunity to turn to Jah, and be One with him. ----------------------------------- In Ezekiel it says, --------------------------------------- Ezekiel 18 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? --------------------------------------- Jah has no limits. So I and I have no limits unto righteousness if I and I are with Jah. Livity Gideon, You mentioned, -------------------- Someone asked Jesus what they should do in order to do good works, and Jesus answered, "You have to believe." That's all, just believe in christ. -------------------- Could the I point out where Christ said this. From what I remember, I don't think Christ said that. Here is one thing Christ said related to good works: Luke 18 18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. Ark I RasTafarI Haile Selassie I

Messenger: gideon Sent: 12/16/2004 8:50:20 AM

Ark, It doesn't matter where it is in the bible that Jesus said all you need is to believe. You as a man need to know it from within yourself that it is true. If you knew it you wouldn't need me to tell you where it is in the bible, because you would recognize it as the truth and you wouldn't need more proof. It seems that you are focusing on works, thinking that purity of spirit comes from works. The good news is that it is by faith and not by works that we become pure, faith in Christ. It is this single point that is separating us all the time on this forum. You always are looking to works as evidence of purity, but I always declare purity based on faith. There is no way for both of us to be right, because faith and works are two opposite approaches. You cannot believe in one while believing in the other. Anyway, it's in John somewhere, I can't find it right now. Bergy, I think you and me do see things the same way, but it looks like there is one more point. I agree that we are all on the same path with the same beginning and end. But what I am saying is that even in the middle we are on the same path, although I do understand what you mean when you say that in the middle we go different. Here is my reasoning; when someone goes on a journey from one place to another the road can bend and sometimes he can find himself going in the opposite direction heading away from his destination, but he does this knowing that ultimately this will bring him to his final destination, because he is on the right road. It is like that when people make mistakes and do (physically) wrong things. Their spirit is pure and they have a pure heart and intention, so they are not condemned. It is simply that they are making a mistake in their thinking, they are experimenting so that they can find the right direction. It's like when you try to put a key into a keyhole, you might miss the hole on the first try but then you slide the key around until it slides into the hole. There is no shame in that, or do you expect to push it straight into the hole? It's like opening a tightly closed jar. At first you apply a lower level of force to see if that will work, but then if it doesn't work you apply a higher level of force. Does that mean you were wrong to apply the lesser level, or that you failed? No. It is just that you were experimenting to see what was necessary for success. Life is like that, too. Sometimes we experiment in order to discover for ourselves what we need to do to accomplish our objectives. So if we fail at first it is no shame to us, because even that temporal failure was actually a success in the spiritual sense. So that is why I never say that a man has done something evil, or that a man is evil or sinful. I know by faith that all men are guided by the same spirit so even their mistakes that are sinful in the temporal level are actually divine in the spiritual reality. I agree that we need to spread love and truths and also good works, but as I said to Ark all that is necessary for us to do this is that we believe. And the foundation of belief is forgiveness of mistakes, and the only way to forgive mistakes is to know what I just said, that mistakes are really just experiments on the path of righteousness. So to summarize what I've been trying to express for a while now, when you are on a road driving or walking to a certain destination and the road turns so that you are going in the opposite direction from your final destination for a minute what do you say? Do you say that you slipped off the path? Do you say that you are going wrong? No, all you say is that you are making a slight detour so that you can reach where you're going. So let us not speak badly about people who do things that are not right. We need to remember by faith that actually they ARE doing good. I can say more, but this must be hard to read such a long post already so I'll stop for now.

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 12/16/2004 10:00:52 AM

I don't need you to tell I where it is in the bible because I am almost positive that what you mentioned about what Christ said isn't in the bible, but that your memory is mistaken. If there is Faith, then works must be seen. When I and I have Faith in Jah, Jah guides our way, so I and I won't sin. It is not about concentrating on works, it is about concentrating on Jah. When I and I concentrate on Jah then the works must follow. If there is faith without works, then the faith that a person claims is not real. Jah is I and I guide and rudder if I and I want, and Jah won't guide I and I into sin. Ark I RasTafarI Haile Selassie I

Messenger: Ras Sistren Khamyl Sent: 12/16/2004 11:05:55 AM

selah

Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 12/16/2004 4:58:54 PM

John 6:26-29 (26)"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs and because you ate the loaves and had your fill. (27)Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed hid seal of approval." (28) Then they asked him, "what must we do to do the works God requires?" (29) Jesus answered them, "The work of God is this:to believe in the one he has sent." Ephesians 2:4-9 (4) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, (5) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions- it is by grace that you have been saved. (6) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, (7)in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.(8) FOR IT IS BY GRACE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, THROUGH FAITH- AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD- (9)NOT BY WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST." Philippians 2:12-13 (12) Therefore, my dear freinds, as you have always obeyed- not only in my presence, but now much more in my presence, but now much more in my absence- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, (13) FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO ACT ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PURPOSE. I know what verse it is that you are reffering to and what it says is that works will not get a man salvation, BUT THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST MAN WILL PERFORM GOOD WORKS. What we have to overstand is that yes works are good, but what is good that isn't done in the sight of Jah. So if a man does works without being washed in Rastafari, without being one with His Majesty, then the works are no good. Time and efforts are wasted without the Lord. Ras Zion I

Messenger: NineMile2004 Sent: 12/16/2004 6:07:53 PM

I agree Gideon, faith is important part. But we build faith thru works, they help lay the foundation and the faith comes and then the works become less important. We all know right from wrong but doing right is different than knowing it. Discipline of the mind in the light of knowing right from wrong is essential to live righteous. BUt we also needed the works in a way because they told us about Jesus and Selassie, unless we have walked the earth already knowingly during that time. I can agree with Gideon but I can also add to it. We cant just adopt works of others, we must find our own truth, which will as we know be the same truth for all. How do we know that? Because we have faith, that just gets stronger and stronger. Gideon, the part about the earlier post where you talked about the journey between beginning and end, I am not sure if I can follow your reasoning. 1. Do you believe we are imagining the murder, crime, unjustice that people do altogether in our minds and project this imagination back so our eyes manifest them in our physical life? 2. Do we just imagine that a murder etc. that is done is a "bad" thing eventhough it is done but it is just a mistake, a wrong turn? Are you saying that it is okay for us to kill because it is just a mistake? We shall forgive with love and we shall be positive and teach positive but it is not ok to kill and we dont just have to accept it as a mistake, but we must educate that these type of mistakes are not the ones JAH wants us to make. By killing we kill of part of ourselves everytime. Like after the raindrop becomes one with the ocean (again). Killing is like draining the drops back out of the oean. Respect, Bergy

Messenger: gideon Sent: 12/16/2004 6:13:20 PM

It is clear that faith in christ is all that God requires of us, and also it is clear that faith in christ is manifest through works. But what Ark seems to be trying to do is twist it around and say that by seeing the works he can assess who has faith in christ. That is wrong. So when he doesn't see what he considers to be righteoussness in someone's actions he says they are false and they do not accept christ or rastafari. For me, I am against all such thinking. But I support his right to say such things because words alone cannot harm anyone. It is only by teaching people the truth that we will be able to wipe off that backward, negative reasoning from the earth. The gospel of christ is all about grace. Thank you for all the quotes from the bible. As I always say, we need to know the truth inside ourselves and then we will know how to interpret what the bible says. Ark, I have a question for you, a simple one. Are you saved by grace and do you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour who brought the message of grace, which is the only way to life. Or do you follow some other tradition? I want to ask everyone that question too, because I know that what Ark has been saying is accepted by many....

Messenger: gideon Sent: 12/16/2004 6:34:31 PM

In response to Bergy: When someone is fully whole they do not kill or do anything wrong in any way. But when they are still growing they sometimes need to do wrong things so that they can learn. They should not be judged as evil because of this, because they are doing the best they can given their limitations. As you said, everyone who kills is killing a part of themselves. So, I ask you, who would knowingly and intentionally kill a part of themselves? No-one would do that. In fact, when people kill you can know that they are ignorant of what they are doing. It is the same with all wrong or sinful actions. People do these things because they are ignorant of the significance of their actions and not out of any evil purpose, malice, or hateful intention. That is why Jesus was able to forgive even the people who killed him on the cross. He said, forgive them for they know not what they do. He gave the reason why they should be forgiven, and it is a valid reason. We do wrong things so that we can learn to know ourselves. It is something we do so that we can get closer to God. As you rightly say, it is a shame that we have to do wrong things in order to learn. In fact it is not necessary, but we do it out of ignorance, thinking that it is the only way for us to learn the way of righteousness. What we need to do is teach people about Jah so that they will know the true way of righteousness. That way, when they want to reach closer to God they will not do wrong in ignorance, but instead they will have the knowledge to do right. It's kind of like my son. He loves people so much that he used to pinch people to get a reaction out of them. That's the best thing he knew because he was just around six months. But it was wrong, not the right way to go about communing with people. Would someone hate him because he is doing wrong? No. Anyone would say that he is a loving child but someone needs to show him to way how to act. When someone shows him the way then he will see it is right and his own heart will lead him to walk that way. So God sent his son, so that whoever believed in him would not perish but have everlasting life. He did this to show us the way to reach him, because he knew that in our hearts we were searching for him. If he judged the book by its cover he would have destroyed the whole world, but he knew to look at the heart and he saw that even our wrong actions were actually done in a spirit of love. Just for a reference, the word sin originally means error or mistake.

Messenger: Dreadnut Sent: 12/16/2004 6:58:47 PM

Works and Faith work as one movement my lord. There is no such thing as faith without works or works without faith. Without the works our faith is not lived in example which is what we have been called to do. Without faith the merits of a mans work is diminished. A false religion is one that is not lived. I believe that I speak for Ark I as well when I say that, Faith and Right Works are one thing that come hand in hand, like two slices of bread makes one whole sandwich, a slice of faith and a slice of right works makes it complete, without both in constant practice then neither is valid. Because if a man held to faith Christ would work through him producing the fruit of his works, when a man acts out of accord he has lost faith and with the same stone loses his right acts, seen? Without high, low vanishes Without left, where goes right Without sound, who can hear silence These things faith and works are two words that must be composed in one life. As far as judging someone by acts that is wrong, it should be the act that should be judged not the one who offends. Any wrong should be corrected, cause if you don't get right, your gonna get left. But through our forgivness, prayers and God's blessing of salvation through His grace, that one who does wrong must be corrected. Haile I Ras Zion I

Messenger: Ark I Sent: 12/16/2004 9:08:25 PM

I give thanks for the quotes from the bible. I memory was the one that was mistaken. John6 (28) Then they asked him, "what must we do to do the works God requires?" (29) Jesus answered them, "The work of God is this:to believe in the one he has sent." This doesn't change what I think, it is not the only thing Christ told I and I. What does believe in the One that Jah sent mean? To I it is saying much more than what you appear to be taking out of it. Does believing in the One that Jah sent just mean believing that Christ is the One Jah sent? As I see it, believing in the One that Jah sent includes believing the things that Christ told I and I. And Christ didn't just tell I and I to believe who He is, He told I and I many more teachings. Christ told I and I the way we are supposed to Live. He never told I and I to live as the wicked, he told I and I to Live in righteousness, as He lives in righteousness. Gideon, you said, ------------------ But what Ark seems to be trying to do is twist it around and say that by seeing the works he can assess who has faith in christ. That is wrong. So when he doesn't see what he considers to be righteoussness in someone's actions he says they are false and they do not accept christ or rastafari. ------------------ I never said that I can assess who has faith in Christ by seeing their works, and that is not the what I am reasoning about. Anybody can show you good works. Even the most wicked can display the appearance of good works if he wants. But somebody with even a small amount of faith in Christ will not do the works of the most wicked. And somebody with all their faith in Christ will not do any wickedness. I look at the Spirit, and when I see the Spirit, I watch to see when the Spirit that is shown manifests into works. It is very difficult for people to hide what is on the inside, it always slips out if I and I know what to look for. I Iverstand that many people sin, even though their intentions are to Live by the example of Christ, and these Ones are on the path to Jah. But others don't have intention towards Jah, and have no desire to correct their ways. The Fire that I burn is to rid myself of my sins, so they can never tempt I again. I have burned many parts that I don't desire and I continue to burn the rest until they are gone. It was by blazing this Fire that I removed a lot of the foolishness within me, it was not by saying to Iself, that my sin is just my path to Jah. I see I sin as a path away from Jah, so I blaze Jah Fire on the sin so that it can no longer exist withing I. Christ sacrificed himself by teaching I and I the ways of Jah. If he didn't teach Jah ways, the people would have had no desire to crucify Him. So that is why I sight that I and I are to Live in the ways of Christ. What was the point of Christ saying all those teachings if He meant for us to ignore them and just hope that we will be saved. I look to Jah to lead with Jah Divine Grace and be as I rudder, directing I path. And I know that when I do or think something wrong, that it is wrong. I don't do it because I don't realize it is wrong, and most other people don't do the things they do because they don't realize that it is wrong. It is not about condemning people who do wrong, as I have mentioned in the past, but it is about showing people to do right. Even the most wicked has the option to turn to Jah, but some don't desire this, they prefer what they receive by hurting others. So I will concentrate on the Ones that do wrong, but desire the right. If you can't accept that some people desire to do wrong, then don't accept it. Your faith might be in man, but I faith and trust is in Jah, not man. And I accept that many that do wrong desire to do right, but not all do. And I accept that some may do wrong and not know it is wrong, but I feel that the majority of times, at least with adults, they know what they are doing. You don't have to accept this if you don't want, but I find it a useful thing to accept for I own self. Many people will not turn to righteousness, but will die in wickedness, just as so many people have died this way in the past. I look to Jah to lead I to the Ones that will turn to Jah, so that I can reason with them, because I am not a wasteful farmer, I want the seed Jah gave I to become fruit and bear more seed. Gideon, you said, ---------------- The gospel of christ is all about grace. Thank you for all the quotes from the bible. As I always say, we need to know the truth inside ourselves and then we will know how to interpret what the bible says. Ark, I have a question for you, a simple one. Are you saved by grace and do you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour who brought the message of grace, which is the only way to life. Or do you follow some other tradition? ---------------- As I mentioned above about Jah Divine Grace, the Spirit of Truth is the Grace, the voice of Jah telling I what parts of our selves to burn away, and what parts of ourselves to uplift. Grace doesn't just mean mercy, it also has a meaning of divine direction. Like when people say that someone "moves with grace". Here are some reasonings that show what I think about Faith and Works, and how they both are One. Sacrifice Perfect Livity Livity Ark I RasTafarI Haile Selassie I

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